They are principled Democrats. They know the basic principle of presidential politics-that no liberal can win the Presidency. So these principled Democrats and the media know that Kerry must lie over and over again to have any chance of being elected.

Can’t you hear the media beating their war-drums for Kerry? Those drums are saying:

Kerry is a Reagan Conservative
Kerry is a Reagan Conservative
Kerry is a Reagan Conservative
Kerry is a Reagan Conservative

I wonder how many Democratic voters and delegates oppose the Patriot Act. I also wonder how many Democratic voters and delegates know that John-squared support the Patriot Act.

We know, we don't care. What's the alternative -- the guys that actually initiated the Iraq War and the Patriot Act? The guys that would do it again in a second? The guys that want more wars and less civil liberties even now? Don't think so. But we, principled Democrats appreciate your concern about our voices not being heard.

Sorry Dawn. The Democrats are the war party. They started the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korean and the Vietnam war.

And the Civil War, Korean and Vietnam war were ended by Republicans.

We know, we don't care.
Good point, Dawn. The thing about republicans is that they WANT wars. See, when Clinton went to Yugoslavia, he didn't WANT to do it, because he is a GOOD guy. Republicans are BAD guys, and therefore, when they go to war, it proves that they WANT to go to war.

Say what you want about Clinton going to Yugoslavia, but I don't think he ever said we were doing to secure weapons of mass destruction that could be used against us. I think the argument about the Vietnam war is much closer, kennedy and johnson wanted that fight and Johnson figured out a way to get there. I don't know squat about the Korean war, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say the Civil war is not at all relevant as it didn't involving the u.s. attacking any sovereign nations.

Say what you want about Clinton going to Yugoslavia, but I don't think he ever said we were doing to secure weapons of mass destruction that could be used against us
So, because he said nothing about WMD, you conclude that he didn't want to go there?

No, the opposite, but he didn't pretend we had to.

Remember, Dawn- Saddam initiated the Iraq war,
and,
the UN could not even keep its inspectors in that country.

The Left also decries America's early support for Saddam, but has no respect for the current President who absolutely reversed that policy.

Come on Jake. I know you worship at the shrine of your party but despite the fact that you have donated heart, head, spine and soul to the Republican Party, your take on American history is not so.

Lincoln reinforced Fort Sumter and called for volunteers to crush the rebellion causing VA, TN, NC and Arkansas to leave the Union. Had he not done so and resorted to peaceful solutions (like Seward was trying) the war would not have cost 2% of the American population their lives.

Gerald Ford was president when the war ended in 1975 and during "the running" when North Vietnam was breaking through South Vietnam and landing the death blow, he called for more men, supplies and cash to South Vietnam. The Democrats in Congress did not listen. Had it been up to the Republicans, the Vietnam War would have continued. For the record, I think Ford and the GOP stand was the right one.

And Ike ordered the first military advisors to Vietnam.

And who went to war with Spain ? McKinley. A Republican. Who went to war in the Phillipines ? mcKinley and TR ? Republicans. Who wanted to get in the Great War and cursed Wilson for not doing so ? TR-a Republcian who was angling for the 1920 nomination. Who was president when we wiped out the Sioux in Minnesota ? Lincoln. Who ordered the Little Big Horn Campaign ? Grant. Who was president during Gulf War, Cambodia, Nicaragua, Grenada, Wounded Knee....

You guessed it. Republicans.

Neither party has a monopoly on virtue or vice or war mongering or using the Constitution as toilet paper.

VB:

TR may have wanted to enter WWI, but he was no longer a mainstream Republican. He had run as the Progressive party nominee in 1912. The Republicans were generally antiwar which is why they did so well in the 1920 election.

Dan, no.

TR was back in the fold after 1914 and went to bat big time for 1916 GOP nominee Charles Evans Hughes who was something of a protoge. Also remember Nick Longworth (TR's son in law who married Alice) was rising up the ranks as a party loyalist. TR was the front runner in 1920 before his death and was pro war. But yeah the Senate cabal chose the much maligned Harding for the White House and won big time on normalcy.

An aside. I'm being serious on Harding. During his presidency he cut taxes and unemployment went from 12 to 3 percent. While he had a sordid personal life and his adminstration saw several scandals, Harding was a much better president than most give him credit for. I think he did better than Taft, Hoover, Carter and others who are ranked ahead of him.

VB:

Thanks for the correction.

And Harding was one of our great presidents. He shrunk the federal government (spending, too) and launched one of the biggest booms in American history. Bush could learn a lot from him.

Dawn,
Clinton didn't say we had to go to war, he didn't want to go, he but he went anyway.

Must have been another republican plot I guess.

And the self-annointed War President is........?

Von Bek:

The Democrats wanted to have a quick war so they could continue to enslave black people thus they fired on Fort Sumter to start that war. They were sure the Republicans would run for cover-they were wrong.

The North Vietnamese were bluffing and Ford knew it. Any show of strength would have ending the North Vietnamese attacks in a week. The Kerry-Krazed Democrats preferred that Ho-Chi-Min take over Vietnam and Cambodia so they would not allow Ford to do anything.

Ho-Chi-Min did exactly what the Democrats wanted. He invaded those countries and executed 1,500,000 people.
Kerry has take special delight in the actions of Ho-Chi-Min ever since.

Ring the bell, Jake. School's in.

"The Democrats wanted to have a quick war so they could continue to enslave black people thus they fired on Fort Sumter to start that war. They were sure the Republicans would run for cover-they were wrong."

Uh...no.

Lincoln's regular Democratic opponent, Stephen A. Douglas, in the 1860 election did no such thing. Nor did Douglas's chief political lieutenats, John McClernand and John Logan, who both led corps in the Union Army. For the record, Democratic President James Buchanan did not hand over Ft. Sumter to South Carolina. As for other Democrats in uniform: Dan Sickles, Joe Hooker, Ambrose Burnside, Henry Halleck, Winfield S. Hancock, William Rosecrans and George McClellan amongst others served their nation with honor for parts of the war. Note I am not including Ben Butler to the list since he did nothing to help the Union cause.

And almost everyone wanted a quick war at the start of the war-including Lincoln. It's why Lincoln went for a quick knock out at Bull Run instead of immediately adopting Scott's brilliant Anaconda plan.

"The North Vietnamese were bluffing and Ford knew it. Any show of strength would have ending the North Vietnamese attacks in a week. The Kerry-Krazed Democrats preferred that Ho-Chi-Min take over Vietnam and Cambodia so they would not allow Ford to do anything."

We had shown strength for over a decade yet North Vietnam still was attacking. I'm not defending the Democrats here, I think America had betrayed South Vietnam.

"Ho-Chi-Min did exactly what the Democrats wanted."

Yeah Scoop Jackson, Hubert Humphrey, George Wallace and Jimmy Carter were all Commies.

"He invaded those countries and executed 1,500,000 people."

Just what the Democrats wanted.

Jake, time to start weening yourself from the teat of your party.

"Kerry has take special delight in the actions of Ho-Chi-Min ever since."

This is one of the problems with political debate today. Clinton haters, Bush haters, now Kerry haters who are so blinded by their partisan loyalties that they trivialize evil by including their enemies in it.

Hey, Bush knew about 9/11. Kerry and the Democrats cheered on the killing fields.

That is moral idiocy.

Von Bek, So true. You are a man of great wisdom.