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August 19, 2004

A poker question

Last night was my friend, and sometimes commenter, Pheeleepok's birthday. To celebrate, he and 10 or so friends went to a poker hall. I can't believe that it's legal to operate this kind of establishment in the middle of Manhattan but I'm told that there is some loophole in the law that allows it to function as a 'social club'. I was one of 3 women in the room.

The betting was small denominations, 1-2 if that means anything to anyone reading this. I was playing very tight, under the watchful eyes of my Russian guy friends who would bark at me if I didn't, and stayed in for maybe 2 flops out of the first 20-25. Finally, I drew a QK suited as Big Blind. I watched everyone check and then raised pre-flop and got 3 other players out, leaving one in with me. It was a rainbow flop, all under 10. I raised, trying to scare off the remaining player. He said 'I know I'm facing bullets but I'll see you.' Low card on the turn. I raised again. He called. Low card on the river, no straight or flush possibility. I went all in. He called. I had nothing. He had a pair of sevens. I think I played this correctly, can someone correct me if I'm wrong?

Posted by Karol at August 19, 2004 09:45 AM | TrackBack
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Comments

if you lost you did not play correctly (regardless of what you should or should not have done).

though, you did manage to scare out most of the people, you just could not shake the last one.

also, you may have played correctly, but he could have screwed up (theoryiaticy) by staying in, but he got all of you money.

Posted by: cube at August 19, 2004 10:13 AM

no, you never go all in with nothing unless you're crazy short stacked. I think you fell in love with your hand.

Posted by: dawn at August 19, 2004 10:36 AM

I'm nowhere as good at playing as I'd like to think I am.

It seemed like this guy was either new to playing poker and you bled him slowly enough that it wasn't enough to get him out (a pro with nothing would have either bluffed heavy enough to scare you out early), or he was really good and was able to read something about you which enabled him to stay in and play your game (which was, in fact, his).

Either way, I kinda play "go heavy or go home", especially if you've got nothing.

As opposed to raising $10 for each of the flop and the turn, and then going all in on the river, bet $30 at the flop, and if he sees you, there's a good chance he's got something. If you're going to bluff, make sure it's heavy enough.

Finally, was it pocket sevens? If the second one came on the turn or the river... shame, shame, shame.

Posted by: Sean at August 19, 2004 10:40 AM

Again, the most important thing is the other player.

You don't play your hand, you play the player.

Posted by: Sean at August 19, 2004 10:41 AM

you have KQs in the BB and raise. this is probably your first mistake. true, KQs is a Group 2 hand, but you're dreadfully out of position, and your hand plays pretty well in a multi-way pot, so I'd be inclined to just limp it in.

but you raised. ok. not terrible.

here's the problem: you now have a harder time getting away from your hand when the flop misses you. because you raised pre-flop, you feel obligated to bet the flop. when your opponent called your flop bet, he told you either that he caught a piece of the flop or that he thinks he has a better hand than you and that you missed the flop. at that point you should have gone into check-fold mode unless you hit the board.

I don't know how deep your stack was, but I think going all-in on the river was too late. it's not likely to scare him off by that point.

Posted by: asphnxma at August 19, 2004 10:43 AM

btw, which club were you at - playstation, ace point, galaxy, wall street, some random other not listed here...?

Posted by: asphnxma at August 19, 2004 10:47 AM

Never stay with less than an ace as one of your hole cards or a really good pair on the opener--sevens or better seems right. No one gets bluffed out of a penny ante game on the river, and even the big boys will make you pay eventually.

Posted by: Michael at August 19, 2004 10:49 AM

Dawn, I didn't fall in love with my hand, I just felt that he didn't have anything much.

Asphnxma, It's in the East 60's. I thought I was in a good position to raise because everyone had checked indicating that they didn't have anything special and because I had yet to raise anything the whole night, thereby giving the impression that I had something serious.

Posted by: Karol at August 19, 2004 11:01 AM

If you haven't paired up after the flop, or gotten a flush draw or a straight draw stop betting it.

Posted by: Zach at August 19, 2004 11:12 AM

ace point. that's the preferred club of the A.M. Co.

the problem with your raise is that your hand isn't that strong given that you're out of position. bluffing and semi-bluffing out of position is difficult. also, players attempt to steal-raise from the BB all the time. depends on the player, of course, but raises from the BB often don't get much respect.

regardless of the pre-flop play, once he called your flop bet, you were in trouble and needed to slow down. also, given your gender, he may not have given you credit for much skill (you'll have to tell me if that was the case, but I see it happen all the time -- male players arrogantly assume that females don't know what they're doing). if that was the case, your bluffing opportunities are fewer, but you'll get paid off more often when you do have the goods because players will call you all the way down to the river with as little as a pair of sevens.

Posted by: asphnxma at August 19, 2004 11:17 AM

You're probably right on the gender thing. I thought it would work to my advantage like 'she wouldn't bet like this if she didn't have anything' but I can see what you're saying.

The place was a trip. Everyone is so young and it seems real disorganized but just try to leave with chips in your pocket and see the manager chase you down the stairs (not me but I watched it happen).

Posted by: Karol at August 19, 2004 11:34 AM

Having attempt to draw for an inside straight yesterday (and lost), I am in no position to give anybody poker advice. But yeah it seems the advice above is spot on.

Posted by: Von Bek at August 19, 2004 11:45 AM

I agree with dawn. Unless you're short-stacked, you can't go all in with nothing.

Posted by: Drew at August 19, 2004 03:33 PM

"I went all in. He called. I had nothing."

I think this pretty much says it all. You had a good hand and I would have bet strongly on the blind holding a KQ, too.

Ultimately though, you never paired up either of them and got burned. In hindsight, you should have let up when the betting got hot. It sounds to me as if you think that since you only stayed in for 2 flops out of the previous 25, you assumed that people would figure you had an awesome hand and drop out, or that your KQ high would be enough to win the high card. That worked for everyone but one stubborn guy, and he was holding a pair. Sometimes that's all it takes.

It sounds like you played the hand right up front, but got carried away toward the end.

Posted by: Ravenwood at August 20, 2004 06:43 AM

Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, my despammer MT Blacklist somehow erased Spoons Experience comment. DOH. Soooooooo sorry.

Well, to answer the questions that no longer exist in the comment section:

I was short stack.

Everyone called, as opposed to checked, sorry for the confusion.

And, you're all right, I shouldn't have stayed in at the end with nothing but I was just in a bad situation.

Posted by: Karol at August 20, 2004 10:43 AM

D'oh! Oh well, it happens. Besides, my comment was so long that you and I were probably the only ones who read it anyway!

You were playing limit poker, though, right?

Posted by: Spoons at August 20, 2004 11:37 AM

Yes. (So sorry again).

Posted by: Karol at August 20, 2004 12:04 PM

Hey i was at the game..funny i should come across your post

gl..you seem to be ehading in the right direction

Posted by: Richie at August 24, 2004 10:19 PM

Is this Richie, originally from Brooklyn now of Staten Island? If yes, how did you find this? How funny.

Posted by: Karol at August 24, 2004 11:02 PM

Inkjet Cartridges - Inkjet Cartridge

Posted by: Inkjet Cartridges at October 18, 2004 07:10 AM
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