I hear that. How about a high school for the fat kids? One for the geeks? One for the spoiled who want public school street cred? (oh, wait, those last two are Bronx Science and Stuyvesant, sorry.)

Can we have a separate high school for the politically incorrect? Such as people who would dare question the value of the Harvey Milquetoast Academy?

Amen. A-freakin'-men.

Wow, I mean wow.

"These students 'require' a special learning environment not because they are gay or lesbian, but because they practice anti-social behavior--from excessive piercings to inappropriate clothing--that has self-segregated them from the rest of their peers in public school"

So you seriously believe that gay kids who are otherwise "normal" won't be abused? That homophobia would cease if gays just stopped acting like weirdos?

Puh-leaze. I can assure you that "coming out", no matter how conservative your appearance and behavior, is gonna result in an ass-kicking or ten. God help the all-American high school football player or wrestler who thinks otherwise.

"a zoo of deranged species" (Dorian Davis) ... "Harvey Milquetoast" (Jay) ... yeah, no homophobia here.

And your arm-amputation analogy is totally off-base. You say: "A guy wants wants to cut his arm off, we put him in a sanitarium; a guy wants to cut his penis off, we say, 'That's okay--he's gay!')"

I repond: Why is it OK for a woman to have giant bags of silicone shoved into her breasts, but not OK for a transgendered guy to do the same?

No, seriously. I'm looking for a rational answer here -- not "because it's gross" or "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" -- I personally find transgenderism a bit shocking, but I wouldn't commit the fella(?) to an insane asylum.

Totally agreed about Harvey Milk being a bad idea. Segregation isn't a solution.

Disagree with you about Transgenderism being a mental disorder though. Rather I think it's a cop out for those who consider themselves to have moved beyond the concept of gender but then turn around and lock themselves into gender stereotypes. There is no specific way that someone of male gender acts. There is no specific way that someone of female gender acts. If people who call themselves Transgender really want to break the mold they should simply be and do and like whatever they are and do and like, without doing backflips of reasoning over how they really aren't whatever their biological sex is.

Just a sidenote, in case you didn't know, Joe: Dorian, the author of this post, is gay (as is Chad who commented in agreement above). Just makes the homophobic label harder to stick.

Karol:

That doesn't mean much to me. I "know" plenty of self-hating Jews.

I wouldn't call Dorian a self-hating gay, based on what he's said, but ... just as a lot of actively-self-hating or assimilationist Jews seem to hate it when their coreligionists act/look/talk/think so damn "Jewish", Dorian sounds like he has a lot of hostility built up towards gays who, well, act like a bunch of fags.

Transgendered is different than gay. Many transgendered people are actually straight.

I think Dorian is showing the same intolerance towards transgendered people that straight people show towards gays. He should be more tolerant than that. I would recommend that he actually go out and talk to some transgendered people, as he might learn a thing or two.

I'm not a fan of the high school either, as it shows that society is failing our gay youth. However, if you look at the stats, it is an amazing success, as dropout rates fell from something like 80% to almost zero if I recall correctly. I can only assume that suicide rates have plummeted as well. So I think asking how many of these kids would have been dead without this high school is a valid question.

Maybe if there was less homophobia, we wouldn't need a high school like this.

And c'mon Dorian - you can at least use the term "gay" and not "homosexual"... ;)

Joe--

To respond to your analogy, a woman having minor cosmetic surgery on her breasts is not the same as a gay man having a life-changing, gender-bending operation that forever changes his sex organs, which are the roots of human life and--to some extent--of human identity. It's a big deal.

To respond to your allegation that I'm "hostile" toward the gay community, I would point to the fact that I'm part of the gay community, and that I obviously want it to prosper. But the road to prosperity is not paved with fear and a victim's mentality, and these are the precise traits propegated by the Harvey Milk School.

Downtown Lad--

I suspect that the low drop-out rates have something to do with the curriculum itself: basic math and reading, plus "culinary arts" and "after-school vogueing classes."

Dorian - Care to name me one respected psychiatrist who equates being transgendered with a mental illness?

Dorian - 20% of the students were homeless, because they were kicked out of their house by their parents who couldn't deal with the fact they are gay.

Where exactly are you going to send these kids?

The vast majority of gay kids do not want to go ot this school. You have to admit we are dealing with exceptions here. And I, for one, can't speak for these kids.

What's wrong with culinary arts? I think almost every high school in the country has classes in culinary arts. Mine did, and I went to school in the suburbs. They also had metal shop and wood shop.

As for after-school vogueing activities, why do you care what they do after-class? Is that really any worse than a Dungeons and Dragons club?

DL--

The very concept of this school is--or should be--offensive to every gay person in America; it's an institution of learning predicated on the belief that its students can't make it public school precisely because they are gay.

But Dorian - These kids AREN'T making it in public schools. I realize you're being idealistic, but let's face it, without this school - you have to ask yourself how many of them would not only not graduate, but how many would be dead?

If your parents had kicked you out of the house when you were 14, because you were gay, which high school would you have attended?

Also, the government already DOES segregate gay people. They don't allow gay people to enter the army. They don't allow gay people to get married.

So if they want to do that - we can have our own high school. If they want to abolish segregation when it comes to the military and marriage, then maybe society has changed enough that we don't need gay high schools anymore. But last I checked - that time has not arrived.

DL--

The difference between a productive use of taxpayer money and a wasteful use of taxpayer money is evident in how we approach this problem; I'd spend 100 bucks that it would cost law-enforcement to go arrest the parents for neglect of a 14-year-old child that those parents had tossed out onto the street; I'd spend the several thousand dollars that it would take to place that child in a foster home, and to send that child to a public school with everybody else; I would not, however, build that child his own school as a consolation prize for a bad home life.

How do you do that, when the public sides with the parents?

And what do you do when the kid is getting the shit kicked out of him everyday?

I mean, cmon, we have a President who is opposed to even teaching that bullying is wrong, because that would imply that you can't kick the crap out of gay people anymore.

It's not just a bad home life we're talking about here. It's a bad school system, bad teachers, etc., who are ill-equipped to deal with homophobia in our school systems.

How much would it cost to actually put a good program in place to deal effectively with homophobia in every school in New York City? A hell of a lot more than $3.2 million I bet.

And let's face it - if you as a gay man are intolerant of transgendered people, how do you think straight people are going to act?

Now I'm fine with getting rid of the school if they can do that. But my hunch is that when they would get rid of the school, they'd put no such program in place, and many of these kids will end up dead, living off of the streets, or will become prostitutes. So - I actually think $3.2 million is rather cheap if you look at it that way.

And let's face it - if you as a gay man are intolerant of transgendered people, how do you think straight people are going to act?

DL, I'm more 'tolerant' of transgendered people than Dorian and I'm straight.

That's because they give you good fashion tips Karol!

Sad as it is, you're totally right. :-)

I will add, that as a gay man, I don't think I'm the most understanding person towards transgendered people either. I don't understand why they do what they do, what goes inside their head, etc.

But at the same time, I don't judge them. And I realize that the one who has to change is me, and I have to learn to deal with my own stereotypes, etc.

So if I'm somewhat intolerant, I can't imagine the type of crap a transgendered person has to deal with on a daily basis. It can't be an easy life.

I also spoke to my friend about this, as he has a friend at his law school who went to Harvey Milk High. His friend said that it is almost an entirely lower-income minority school. That makes sense, as there's much less tolerance for gay people in the black and Hispanic community.

His friend (Hispanic) also said that he would not have graduated high school if he hadn't gone there.

And now he's in an Ivy League law school.

This high school would be a lot easier to denounce if it actually weren't producing results. But it is, and critics have to respond to that.

DL--

I went to a sexually integrated public school, and I went on to NYU, and--subsequently--to work (or with) for HBO, MTV, FUSE, and LOGO. Is that evidence that sexually integrated public schools produce "results" that the critics have to answer to? No. Probably not. The reality is that--unfortunately--many people succeed in spite of the public education system, not because of it.

Dorian - Maybe you should talk to some of the people at Harvey Milk High School and try to understand their side of the story.

I guarantee you that almost all of them went there as a last resort, not a first one.

he has a friend at his law school who went to Harvey Milk High. His friend said that it is almost an entirely lower-income minority school. That makes sense, as there's much less tolerance for gay people in the black and Hispanic community.

His friend (Hispanic) also said that he would not have graduated high school if he hadn't gone there.

And now he's in an Ivy League law school.

Whoa. Hold up. If HM has only been open three years, and college is four years, how is this guy in Law School (and obviously past year one because your friend already knows him and classes haven't started yet)?

I wore glassed at high school and was picked and teased on...I guess I should demand my own school.

Food fight! I actually hate the idea of segregating gay students. I think segregation breeds homophobia does not reduce it. But, I also think DL has a point: if dropout rates are dropping, suicide rates most likely are too. And so what if they are teaching culinary arts and vogueness in high school. I wish I knew a little more about that when I graduated. For some of us Moes it don't come that natural.

God, DL and Dorian fighting... Can we get a wrestle ring for this one?

I don't think this is a fight. I'm sitting here typing in a very matter of fact manner. Hope it doesn't come across that way.

Karol - The high school has been around for more than three years. I heard about this over 10 years ago if I recall correctly. In fact, Giuliani was a big supporter of the school.

DL--

The "school" in its present shape has only been around since 2003; it had been originally founded in 1984 as a series of gay and lesbian after-school programs at the Hetrick-Martin Institute.

An interesting choice of words re the transgendered students - it took a long time to remove homosexuality from the dictionary of mental illnesses...

It wasn't just after-school activities. They helped students get GED's.

"The school actually began back in 1985 as a tiny non-diploma-granting institution within HMI—a place for the agency’s displaced youths to earn a GED degree, taught by one full-time instructor hired by the Board of Education."

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/features/10970/

DL--

High schools offer diplomas, not GEDs.

Dorian

Well Dorian - Maybe you should talk to the guy yourself. I'm sure I can put you in touch with him if you really want to interrogate him.

I'm just going off of what my friend told me last night. His friend went to Harvey Milk and he is now at an ivy-league law school. The same law-school my friend goes to. The gay community is rather close there, so I don't see why he'd be making this stuff up.

DL--

I didn't say that your friend was making it up; it was Karol who said that; I said that one second-story of individual accomplishment at Harvey Milk doesn't justify segregation.

Aaron:

When was the last time a kid was kicked out of their own home for being nearsighted?

It's not segregation. Straight people can attend the school as well.