But it's not a matter of "supporting" the cartoons by reprinting them; pulling them in the first place, or promising not to print cartoons like them in the future, is surrendering to the worst elements in society; the stupidest, most violent people.

I agree completely that cowering is unacceptable. But reprinting them while nyah nyahing doesn't seem helpful either.

Again,I think something like this is needed to bring it to a head. Otherwise, the problem witll never go away. The islamofacsists will just get a stronger foothold in europe. You can fight them now or you can fight them later. I say now. I say give them the finger.

Just so I'm clear: I agree completely that Islamofascists and their supporters should be taken down and taught that their idiotic way of living isn't going to fly in the free world. My problem is with the reprinting of the cartoons under the auspices of 'solidarity' or trying to be brave.

Is it really about the cartoons? They were published in september so why is everybody reacting now? I think more press should pay attention to the fact that this only became newsworthy in Saudi Arabia after the mishaps during the Haij, as to coverup there own incompetence.

Therfore I believe showing solidarity by publishing the cartoons is not only a valid argument on the behalf of free speech. But it is also a way to expose the Saudis.

This isn't about 'Islamofascists'. IMO this whole Europe thing is just the new American Red scourge. However, this cartoon has offended ALL muslims, not just the ones who are activists/hotheads. To compare depictions of Arial Sharon shows how little this is appreciated. Sharon is not (at this moment, anyway) the prophet of God. Muhammed is. Add to that the muslim belief that Muhammed should not be depicted, as his image should not be worshipped, that to me is minor.
I can't think of a comparison easily. 'Piss Christ' isn't close, nor is 'Flag' (I think that's what it was called, when the US flag was draped on the floor of the gallery, causing, quite rightly, offence amongst war vets).
Offending fundamentalists is one thing, offending every single person of a same religion quite another. I thought black-iris.com had some useful insight into this issue (how to burn a danish flag in particular).

I have a different take on reprinting the cartoons. I think it was done to validate the core Western value of Freedom of the Press, which was clearly under assault. Not republishing would have been a sign of weakness in the face of Muslim calls for self censorship. While further republication is probably pointless now, it was a good idea at the time and has had positive results.

How? This was different from the trumped up Koran flushing incident in Gitmo, and subsequent rioting in Pakistan. The cartoons were largely directed at the connection between "the prophet" and use of religion as a justification for terror and violence. The grotesquely disproportionate Muslim response-- more violence and incitement to violence-- has served as a wake up call to sleeping Europe. The Europeans are beginning to see exactly what is at stake in the conflict with islamofascism -- their freedom.

Merkel's recent analogy of Iran to Germany in the Thirties drives the point home. These people can't be underestimated, and can't be allowed to have the bomb. They ARE crazy enough to use it.

How about under the auspices of spite?

I agree with ll. What I think you're missing on, Karol, is that the cartoons function not just as an act of solidarity but as a test, for every nation in which they're printed, of how adjusted that country's Muslims are to living in an open, democratic society, and how much esteem the Muslim nations of the world give to that country. Sort of like poking at a rock while mountain climbing to see if it's secure. Surely with every embassy torched there's a lot of information being gained.

I agree with you Karol (again). Those cartoons were bad art and not funny, but it is the best Europe can do these days. I would not have published them for the reasons you mentioned plus I would have told those artists to get a real job.

If the European editors had real courage and taste, they would have published front page editorials condemning Muslim violence. Those editorials should also condemn their government for appeasing Muslim radicalism and violence.

I agree. We on the right are acting like the ACLU by blindly supporting the free speech angle of this above all else. In fact, so much so becuase we are reviled at the thought of sucumbing to political correctness and being overly sensitive to multiculuralism.

In the end, though, we are probably secretly satisfied to see Muslims acting irrationally and barbaric, just to have our that point proven. Yet when Xmas is assualted or dung is thrown on Mary, we are just as offended. We certainly don't riot, but that's besides the point.

Those who are offended are responsible for their actions. But those who defend the offenders should not embrace the offense simply to rub the offended even more out of obvious spite.

I just dont understand, do we live in an after school special? Who says that everyone is owed a lesson before serious action is taken? The free world has been attempting to teach these people a lesson for decades. Based on their reaction it seems like we have been sending in a substitute teacher. We dont owe anybody anything, if their way was so good and Islam was so importand then they would be the head honchos and they could do as they pleased. They could chastise us for our moral short comings and what ever the hell they want, but they aint and they cant. The only power they have is the power we give them. We put a lot of effort in becoming powerful and we got here with the least amount of life lost(my appologies to the Native Americans, you got a raw deal but as always America is the only one who seems to care...I havent seen the Spaniards put up any casinos for anyone). Being powerful is a huge responsibility and that means that at some point some people will have to die so others can prosper(that is undeniable...that's right undeniable). That is how civilized society has advanced for thousands of years. We have created world wide welfare and no good deed goes unpunished.

Scott-

When a left-wing nut assaults the Christmas holiday, I say to myself, "That guy is unstable." I don't burn his house down.

Proving what I have known for awhile now - Phee is a genius. Very well said.

problem is karol, that you can't win with the muslims.

you are damned if you give them what they want or you don't give them what they want.

I think that we should piss them off a lot, kills the ones that riot and burn stuff, eventually they will figure out that peaceful ways of protesting are much better.

"They were published in september so why is everybody reacting now?"

those mulims don't read or watch tv or get on the internet.

They are always a few months behind. that was what happen with the koran flushing story.

I just heard on the news that moslem countries are going to hold a world wide contest for best cartoon depicting the holocauset.

Cartoons are a expression! When we loose the right to express our thoughts though art , drawing and writing then we can never be totally free of the the fears of our enemy.

I think any insult to a revered figure like Mohammed is rude. But that's not what these protests are about - they appear to be a very well-organized state-sponsored effort to enforce Islamic law in the West.

Since the Rushdie controversy, Europeans have been afraid to touch the subject of Islam. They were already living under the rules of Sharia for more than a decade. Those laws were enforced by the constant threats of fatwas and death. These cartoons were a protest against those Sharia laws in Europe. I don't object to Mohammed, but I do object to apartheid, genocidal Islamic Sharia laws.

Thank you Ari, you are too kind. I couldnt care less if every muslim on the planet made a nasty holocaust cartoon and hated my jewish ass till steam came shootin out of their ears. I have myself told off color holocaust jokes. Dont lay your hands on me and dont reach in my pocket and we will be ok, however when you cross that line we got problems. They have trampled that damn line.

I agree with the post submitted by REDHAND!

I also agree with the post which said "EVERY editorial in EVERY paper should have STOMPED,and DECRIED these STUPID unexcusable riots!"
WE must STAND up for OUR rights, We can NOT SURRENDER OUR rights to this endless Bloodsheding BLACKMAIL!

Swede1

"Yet when Xmas is assualted or dung is thrown on Mary, we are just as offended. We certainly don't riot, but that's besides the point."

Actually, that's part of the point. One of the more valid points at that.

Karol, I have to say, you're sounding a bit like the State Department on this one, tut-tutting the rest of us for poking sticks in their eyes. Sure, some people ran the cartoons out of spite, some did it out of solidarity, and many religious people on the right did it without thinking of the reverse situation.

I did it partly because I have many readers who don't sit around reading other blogs all day and have no idea what's going on with this. I did it partly because most American media organizations won't show the cartoons despite writing about them. I did it partly out of spite because, well, I am an atheist and religion--in general can bite me--and in this case, the sheer GALL of an entire religion expecting the rest of civilization to stick to their belief system is ... well, actually it's not surprising. And for American newspapers to write news stories about these cartoons and not show them is pathetic.

Let me ask you this. Do Jews threaten to burn down newspapers because they write out the word God? After all, it's something that shouldn't be done according to that particular belief system.

And, for the record, this is just coming to the fore now because Imams went on a tour of the Middle East with the 12 cartoons, plus three other cartoons--cartoons which were disgusting and vaguely pornographic AND made by them--looking precisely to stir things up.

Is it sort of sad that this is what ultimately prompted Europe to draw a line in the sand--as opposed to say, train bombings, or neighborhood riots? Yes, sure. But such is life.

And, finally, as the man says: "Fuck em if they can't take a joke."

Mary. I may have interpreted this incorrectly in which case apologies but

"They were already living under the rules of Sharia for more than a decade."

What on earth makes you think Europe has been living under the rules of Sharia for a decade? Could you perhaps provide some evidence as to how I a Brit who lives in 2 European countries and my european housemates (1 of whom is Danish) have been living under Sharia since I was 12 and not noticed?? Guess that means Kia and my other female friends are in serious trouble any minute now. At some point someone will be coming round to charge me for not having a beard to the correct length? What will happen to the Students Union and all the bars around?

If we have been living under Sharia then Sharia has gotten extremely tolerant.

Oh and to anyone who wants to claim we Europeans are too afraid of insulting Islam I have 2 words.

ABU HAMZA

What on earth makes you think Europe has been living under the rules of Sharia for a decade?

1. Theo Van Gogh, who was executed by an Islamist paramilitary for violating Sharia

2. Hirsi Ali, who has been in hiding from violent threats by other Islamist paramilitary groups station in the Netherlands for making "Submission" I and II, which violate Sharia laws. Also, she's an apostate, and under Sharia, she should be executed for that too. Why is she forced to hide while the Islamist groups are operating in plain sight?

3. The fact that Ali, and other elected political leaders are threatened by Islamist paramilitaries and their government is unable to protect them. For a while, Ali and other politicians had to come and hide in the states. Who's in charge in Europe?

4. This cartoon jihad is the first example of the European media criticizing Islam since the Rushdie controversy. Your press is afraid to say anything negative about Islam - do you think that leads to honest reporting?

5. When there are Islamist protests in Britain, there are no counterprotests. Most counterprotesters are scared off by some of the openly threatening Islamist groups that are allowed to live and collect welfare in Britian. As a result, violent Islamists have the right of free speech and Britons don't. They have better rights than you do. That's sharia.

Oh and to anyone who wants to claim we Europeans are too afraid of insulting Islam I have 2 words.

ABU HAMZA

7 years, big deal. We execute turds like that in America, unless they happen to be respected Saudi diplomats.

7 years after which he will be IMMEDIATELY arrested and extradition hearings will be held to determine whether or not we can send him to America or (my personal favourite) Egypt. And you lot execute minors and the insane so i wouldnt brag about the death penalty.

Hirsi Ali lives under police protection. If the fact that she has to live under the threat of execution by islamist nutjobs is evidence of sharia being the law in europe than America lives under mafia law.

How many Americans live under protection from organised crime?

That our newspapers try not to seriously offend people and some people were murdered for offending Islam does not constitute Sharia being the law in Europe. Are we more tolerant of Islam than America Yes we are. We are more tolerant in general.

Personally i find it rather comforting that to lock someone up they have to have actually COMMITED a crime as opposed to being accused of one.

And you lot execute minors and the insane so i wouldnt brag about the death penalty

I am willing to brag about executing Timothy Mc Veigh. That's how terrorists should be dealt with.

Speaking of laws, is it still against the law to defend yourself by any means in Britain? Have they outlawed bread knives yet?

That our newspapers try not to seriously offend people and some people were murdered for offending Islam does not constitute Sharia being the law in Europe. Are we more tolerant of Islam than America Yes we are. We are more tolerant in general.

Of course you are. No one protests against people who threaten another 7/7 because you're ever so tolerant. Yes you are.

That Covenant of Security, the idea that "the presence of vocal and active Islamist terrorist sympathizers in the U.K. actually makes British people safer, while the full brunt of British-based terrorist plotting is suffered by people in other countries." - isn't working out the way you thought it would, is it?

It has NEVER been legal in Britain to defend yourself by ANY means. The law allows people to defend themselves by REASONABLE means.

We trust OUR citizens to be CAPABLE of deciding what constitutes REASONABLE means. Ask Tony Martin.

Person A in Britain attacks Person B with a butter knife and Person B shoots him. Person B going to prison.

Person A in Britain attacks person B with a machete and Person B disarms him and knocks several teeth out in the process. result Person A in trouble with the law not Person B.

As for covenenat of security I would say yes its working. Rather better than the US MO.

Our method. 56 dead and 700 injured vs 3000 dead.

In a numbers sense it works well enough.

Go mary, let 'em have it. Yeah we love the death penalty. We'll execute anyone we dont care. Minors, retards, midgets, Arabs throw who ever the hell you want in there. We'll build a big fire and toss them all in there. What an irresponsible statement.

And while we are on the subject of religious law applying to state law.

1. How many education bills have gone through congress (with riders or as part of the origional bill) with the stipulation that the schools affected MUST teach ABSTINENCE?

2. Similarly how many health care bills have gone through cutting off federal money to clinics that give abortion advice BEYOND "DO NOT DO IT"?

If Sharia is in force in Europe i would say Christian law is very much in force in America. And as far as Britain is concerned we have a State religion, you don't.

Lastly Islam is approxiamtley 600 years younger than christianity. Islam is doing now what Christianity did 6-700 years ago. Spanish Inquisition? Pilgrim Fathers?

Go mary, let 'em have it. Yeah we love the death penalty. We'll execute anyone we dont care. Minors, retards, midgets, Arabs throw who ever the hell you want in there. We'll build a big fire and toss them all in there. What an irresonsible statement.

I said "I am willing to brag about executing Timothy Mc Veigh. That's how terrorists should be dealt with." Was he a minor, a "retard" or a "midget"? I didn't know that.

I'd brag about executing McVeigh or Adolf Eichmann because both men were terrorists (or fascists, murderers of civilians, whatever). I support the death penalty for political criminals who commit crimes against humanity. In contrast, I'm not proud of the fact that the international community has a habit of never prosecuting political criminals. The fact that Pol Pot died of old age is nothing to be proud of.

Terrorism and genocide are acts of war and should be treated as a military matter. The death penalty for civil crimes is a different matter. I'm not entirely in favor of it.

Mary, I don't know if Phil's comment was clear. He was joking about the midget/retard stuff and agreeing with you about the death penalty.

Oh, well, okay then. Sorry about that.

I going to offer some dissenting comments about Nick and his apparent support of the "covenant of security" that has already resulted in thousands of non-Briton deaths. For sanity's sake I'll guess that he's joking too.

So, nevermind..

Yeah that was a throwaway comment which I would like to retract as it was tasteless.

I made no comment about McVeigh. I disagree with the death penalty but wouldn't be overly outraged over Hamza being executed by you lot in 8 years.

Sharia and US Legislation and Inquisition remains though.

Our method. 56 dead and 700 injured vs 3000 dead.

What a self-loathing pussilanimous piece of shit. Keep bending over dhimmi - you'll surpass our number soon enough.

In the meantime, go fuck yourself.

Radical for you to label me a self loathing, pusillanimous piece of shit is rather amusing.

1. LEARN TO SPELL.
2. The words "Self Loathing", "pusillanimous" abd "piece of shit" should all have COMMAS after them. Thats the punctuation key immediately to the left of Full Stop and to the right of "M".

Surprised you have heard of the word pusillanimous. Pity you can't spell it correctly but what was I expecting?

Pity you are also incapable of reading. If you were to drag your eyes from "how to string up a ni...r in 5 easy steps" and to the comment immediately above your own somewhat vitrilolic and surprisingly articulate post, you would see the words "Yeah that was a throwaway comment which I would like to retract as it was tasteless."

Perhaps you require a dictionary in order to fully comprehend the meaning of the word "retract"? It means to take back.

In the last 18 odd months since I mistakenly ended up perusing this blog I have reached the conclusion that the majority of people who post on here actually have some intellect to back up what they say. Dorian springs to mind as does Karol, two people I hardly ever agree with. From reading your comments Radical I can only assume that you are either 14 years old, (or maybe younger) or you really are the racist, vitriolic, puerile, little prick that most civilised people picture in minds eye when the most negative traits of bible-belt Republicanism in America are discussed. I made a tasteless comment that I later, on reflection, retracted. I have yet to see you muster the social grace to retract any number of the references to "rag heads" or any other phrase you so colorfully coined to describe people of Arab descent.

Either get your radical and red head out of your arse and engage in sensible discussion and dialogue or piss off and leave political discourse to those who actually POSSESS an I.Q higher than BUTTER!!!!!!!

I have no idea if a rather long post of mine will be approved by Karol or not so I will post this anyway.

The comment I made about the number of deaths on July 7th compared to 9/11 was tasteless and out of order. i was going for a cheap and quick put down which I assume caused some offence.

I would like to apologise in general for the comment which I make no defence of, and to Mary in particular. I would like to continue debating the extent of islamic influence in Europe as well as the methods employed by America and Britain in combatting terror with you. My email address usually accompanies any and all posts.

Again I apologise for the comment.

Somebody's feeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwings got hurt. Waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

What's da matter dhimmi, live action Osama doll break? No more terror toys?

If you were to drag your eyes from "how to string up a ni...r in 5 easy steps

Wow! Did you think this up all by yourself? Good boy, now you may bob for pudding in daddy's diaper. He ate a whole can of creamed corn just for you!

Again I apologise for the comment.

Hah! Got the no-balls sissy groveling like bottom feeder he is. Victory!

I own you beeyotch!