September 01, 2006
R.I.P. Hina Saleem, I will be intolerant in your name
"She was simply a daughter who did not obey", said the mother of the 20-year old dead girl, Hina Saleem. Hina was found buried, with her throat slit, in the garden of her family home in Brescia, Italy. The "honor" killing has rocked Italy.
"She smoked and wore revealing, low-slung jeans like many young women. News reports said she had been living with an Italian man....
Her father and uncle have been arrested in the case. [A brother-in-law turned himself in on Thursday, and an unidentified fourth man, also of Pakistani descent, was arrested Friday and accused in the case, the ANSA news agency reported.]"
She simply would not obey. So four men had to kill her.
From the Guardian:
"Investigators said they were looking into the theory that the grave was dug before the woman was killed. It is thought a long kitchen knife was used to slit her throat."
That must have been one disobedient woman.
The spokesman for UCOII, the Union of Islamic Communities in Italy, issued a statement that essentially said:
1. There might be other motives aside from religion in this crime. He presented no evidence or even theories of any such motives.
2. The crime probably happened because the father had let things get so out of control for so long.
3. He concluded by saying that Islam is not separated from the idea of tolerance by strict religious code and that "We will not stand around debating rampant Islamophobic themes".
Well, that clears that up. She wasn't killed because of religious intolerance and if she was, it's because her father had been tolerant for so long. But if you imply religious intolerance was the reason for her murder, you're just propogating Islamaphobic themes. Got that?
Meanwhile, Mahmood Tariq, the director of the Muhammadiah Islamic Cultural Association in Brescia has said "Cases like this happen in all societies."
No. Cases like this DO NOT happen in all societies. Fathers don't kill their daughters, with the help of three other family members because of the cut of their jeans. Mothers don't then explain the killing with a flippant "she did not obey". This is not normal. This is not acceptable.
But here is, of course, the punchline. It's not the Muslims who kill their children that are intolerant, oh no. It's those intolerant Italians:
The anger has Brescia’s residents of Pakistani descent worried.“People used to be more tolerant; they used to be less allergic to seeing someone from a different race,” said Sajid Shah, the founder of the Muhammadiah association, which is building in Brescia what will be the second-biggest mosque in Italy.
When a foreigner does something, the reaction is immediate, Mr. Shah said, adding that since the wave of crime he has felt as though he were under surveillance.
It reminds me of the program on tolerance toward Muslims brought into American schools after 9/11, including the school across the street from where the World Trade Center used to stand. As many said at the time, why are American kids being taught 'tolerance'? Shouldn't we export these programs to kids in Muslim countries to teach them tolerance of us?
So no, I'm not going to be tolerant as a 20-year old is killed by her family. And I'm not going to pretend that this is ok and just something that backward cultures do. This happened in Italy, a western country, but it shouldn't matter where it happens. If we don't collectively rage at these murders, if there isn't a strong signal from us all that we will NOT be tolerant to this then it will keep happening.
(Hat-tip to Ark who felt so strongly about this article that he faxed it to me. Who knew people still used fax machines?)
Posted by Karol at September 1, 2006 01:03 PM | TrackBackTechnorati Tags: Hina+Saleem Honor+Killing+Italy
Life is cheap in europe. They'll merely get a slap on the hand.
Posted by: sam at September 1, 2006 01:10 PM"Cases like this happen in all societies."
Ah, but that will be true soon enough...
Posted by: Alex at September 1, 2006 02:02 PMSick sick sick. But that Pakistani origin doesn't surprise me any. Most of the honor killing's I've blogged in volved Pakistani men.
Pakistan, world famous for murdering women!
Don't that make them feel so damned honorable?
These men should be shown the exact same "mercy and tolerance" they showed her.
Posted by: Howie at September 1, 2006 02:52 PMThe only thing I ask of the religious is that they consider the depths to which religion has sunk man.
Posted by: Dave at September 1, 2006 04:40 PMNo one should be tolerant of this crap. It's cold blooded murder by a family member for such crazy reasons. It's sick.
And no where in the article or in your post suggest that this should be tolerated.
I agree with your point but you are using a strawman example.
Honor killings aren't new to Italy, and it's not just Islam, though fortunately modern Italian society has mostly abandoned them. The more traditional form would have been to kill the man who seduced their daughter rather than the daughter herself, but either way it's treating the daughter as property and killing someone if the family disapproves of her personal choices.
Posted by: bill at September 1, 2006 06:00 PMSam (post 01:10 pm) is right: life is cheap in Europe!
I am relieved to see that in the U.S. this is still a matter of discussion and outrage.
In the Netherlands most people doesn’t even notes it anymore, it’s just a little column in a newspaper and that’s it!
To my shame, I have to admit: we got used to it and it seems that nobody cares.
Now you know why the repair of a girl's hymen is most frequent surgery performed in Moslem countries. It is certain death for the girl if male members of her family find out she is not a virgin.
Unlike Italy, such murders are rarely investigated or prosecuted in Moslem countries. Let's face it, Moslem men believe that women are shit and treat them accordingly.
Posted by: Jake at September 1, 2006 07:11 PMThat is terrible. I question any god that demands murder
Posted by: Rachel at September 1, 2006 08:57 PMGreat post Karol.
Pieter, move out of Eurabia, the US needs more like you.
Paul, I disagree with you. The inference made in Karol's post is clear. The horrible story we read here is not offensive to many millions of Muslims observant of sharia law.
From Wikipedia:
"In most interpretations of Sharia, the death penalty is applied for homosexual acts. According to the opinions of scholars, acceptable means of performing the execution included burning, throwing from tall buildings, and stoning. [10]
Death by stoning is also the penalty for adultery, while lashing with 100 stripes is usually the legal penalty applied for fornication when the guilty parties are not married."
I realize it is not on point, but it is indicative of the dictates of Islam. Many Muslims in Europe are proponents of sharia.
If there is a straw man, he is front and center before us with a blade and a grenade.
I am deeply concerned about the potential backlash from ME if I read another story like this. Just kidding. Peace be upon me. Have a great holiday all.
Posted by: Snarking Dawg at September 1, 2006 11:49 PMAs many said at the time, why are American kids being taught 'tolerance'?
Because it can be done.
Posted by: Timothy Hulsey at September 2, 2006 07:01 AMThanks, Pieter. I got into a pissing match on an identical topic on LGF. It was the Europeans who stepped in and said, no, sam is right. Murder is treated very lightly in europe. Unfortunately, we've had our own honor killings in the US. See, the sad story of Tina Isa: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/672
About 7 years and a wakeup and they'll be out in time to do it again before they get too old for that kinda stuff.
Idiot euros think these kind of people can be reformed.
Posted by: Purple Avenger at September 2, 2006 10:34 AMLife is cheap in Europe? How many US citizens have been executed in the last year, and how many servicemen have lost their lives in Iraq? Seems to me poor value for money is endemic.
Pakistan: We are ALLIES with this country. Isn't that disgusting? Karol, why not press the party you love to change this?
Life is cheap in Europe?
Yeah, life is cheap in europe. The average sentence for premeditated murder is usually no more than 15 years. Here, if you take someone's life, you pay the ultimate price. Unfortunateloy, the death penalty is not imposed and carried out quickly enough because of whiners like you.
how many servicemen have lost their lives in Iraq?
As if you actually gave a damn!
Posted by: sam at September 2, 2006 07:30 PMHi, I found your blog through The Urban Grind.
We think it's pretty severe in the U.S. to cut a disobedient child out of a will! I wonder when or if these barbariand will figure this out?
Just curious, if one of their men took up with a Western woman, they wouldn't kill him, now would they?
Posted by: Ron at September 2, 2006 09:23 PMMy best friend got into trouble while in the army, and he told me this story that I was reminded of while reading your summary of the crazy muslum organization. He got into a fight, he was gonna lose rank, and he got NJP'd, article 15'd whatever you wanna call it. His commander read off the charges, and told my bud of his intentions, and then asked my friend if there is any reason he shouldn't. So my friend reached back to an old joke from highschool and he says he said "that wasn't me sir, that was you."
Thats what the muslims said, "it wasn't me, it was you." Good on ya' allah.
Posted by: Wickedpinto at September 3, 2006 06:15 AMI'm italian, and I can tell you that this murder caused a lot of talk in tv and among the people here. The assassination of Hina was treated as an horrible thing, but no effective action has been taken to improve the integration of foreigners here; they considered the fact an anomaly, not a result of the beliefs of a too old, foreign "culture" which doesn't fit with a modern free country.
In general, the feeling in Italy is that we're giving up the fight to defend our rich culture just when more and more people with totally different cultures are arriving, mainly because of the Italians not caring about this matter, considering it a too long-term issue to worry about now(guess it will be too late when they'll understand), but also because the left wing, post-communist just elected government doesn't seem to dislike more and more immigrants coming here and ignoring our laws. I sense that this behaviour is common to other European countries as well, and this makes me very worried about the future of the continent. I hope things in America are much better.
Things in America are somewhat better, but given the way half our politicians, and far more than half of our Mass Media, kowtow to Islam and its mouthpieces, they're not guaranteed to stay better.
It's game time, friends.
The Tora, The Koran, The Bible, there is more valid moral advice in the writings concerning the exploits of Noddy in Toytown.
Constable Plodd would put an end to these crimes against defenceless women.
Aside from their quaint religious customs of mysogeny and murder, the one thing that enrages me more than anything else about Islamists is their constant playing of the "islamophobia" card. It always appears whenever they are caught redhanded in an act of utter barbarism. They really want a free pass to commit mayhem in the name of their moon god, while we're all supposed to ignore the flesh blood on the floor. These four perps deserve to have their own throats cut, in public, but the West is too civilized for that. If convicted, they'll probably do 7-10 years in an Italian prison and then be let out on "humanitarian" grounds.
Posted by: Redhand at September 3, 2006 10:56 AMP.S. I read the UCOII statement and discovered this absolute howler among the other bobbing and weaving about the murder:
Concerning another motive for the crime, "it seems that the understanding people usually have of practising Muslims is strongly conditioned by a feeling of alienation, or incompatibility, with those which should be the values in Western society in which the defendant decided (but how freely?) to live.Now I understand completely. The poor father was forced to live to Italy, where his otherwise honorable actions are judged by an alien standard. I mean, just because he lives in Italy, why should he have to comply with Italian law? Can't we understand that's he's an alienated Muslim, a law unto himself?
There is no reasoning with these people.
Posted by: Redhand at September 3, 2006 11:13 AMBill:
Of course honor killings aren't "new" to Italy. By definition, dark age practices and beliefs are "old." The difference is that in Italy and other civilized societies stopped engaging in them.
Regarding the "life is cheap" arguement, I'm proud that the lives of murderers are "cheap" in the US. Otherwise the lives of their INNOCENT victims would be cheap, as they seem to be a lot of other places.
Posted by: Buzz at September 3, 2006 11:32 AMI'm from Brescia Italy and the situation is really bad.
God Bless USA
Posted by: Robinik at September 3, 2006 01:06 PMThese four perps deserve to have their own throats cut, in public, but the West is too civilized for that.
It would certainly send the right message to these animals.
Posted by: sam at September 3, 2006 01:25 PMOooh, click on Robinik's name and check out his/her blog. You don't need to be able to read Italian to get the gist of it. Bravo, Robin!
Posted by: sam at September 3, 2006 01:35 PMGrazie ... grazie davvero (really thanks).
I'm happy to let Americans Know that in Eurabia there are people like me Supporting US every day.
Bye!
Posted by: Robinik at September 3, 2006 05:52 PMThe only thing I ask of the religious is that they consider the depths to which religion has sunk man.
All well and good, Dave, but in the end secular humanism is not the way in which the West will muster the courage and strength to defeat the spread of Islam and combat the implementation of Sharia. The non-religious response to the crisis was recently demonstrated by those two FOX journos who "converted" to Islam under threat of violence, instead of standing up for their principles and their country.
Religion has sunk man to horrid depths, but it also exalts man to mighty heights, and it is only in our own religiousity that the West will know its triumph in what is most certainly THE existential struggle of our time.
Posted by: ken at September 3, 2006 08:17 PMonly thing I ask of the religious is that they consider the depths to which religion has sunk man.
Why? It was communism and nazism that truly sunk man to unknown depths – not religion. It was religion that got man through those awful times.
Posted by: sam at September 3, 2006 08:32 PMKen, given the choice, and with a gun to your head, would you not cross your fingers and convert to satan? You expect integrity from journos? You think fundamentalists are only dangerous on the Islamic side?
Sam, back at you, like you give a damn how many die or what sentance people serve for murder in Europe, so long as you stay a full colonel in the 101st keyboard platoon. Prat.
Roberto Calvi wasn't killed by muslims, but honour and ritual seems to have played their parts.
Posted by: bryan at September 3, 2006 08:53 PMKen, given the choice, and with a gun to your head, would you not cross your fingers and convert to satan?
No, I'd stand up defiantly and proudly demonstrate how a Christian dies for his faith. I'm not afraid of death, because death is only a means and not an end in and of itself. The worst Islamists can do is kill me -- I fear Satan much more, as he is capable of far worse. ;)
You expect integrity from journos?
Occasionally, in my less sane moments. But then, I was raised on classic literature, and my grandparents maintained a healthy archive of classic journalism as well: had I lived in another time, my answer may well have been a resounding "yes!"
You think fundamentalists are only dangerous on the Islamic side?
Well, when was the last time 19 Southern Baptists hijacked 4 airplanes and killed 2,996 residents of Tokyo by flying the aforementioned aerial vehicles into...er...whatever tall skyscrapers grace the Tokyo skyline? And when was the last time 4 Orthodox Jews near-simultaneously detonated bombs on the Montreal Transit System, killing dozens and effectively shutting down the city for weeks?
Your attempt at moral equivalence is admirable in its foolishness, and laughable in its juvenile nature, but ultimately is incorrect and wrong-headed.
Don't get me wrong -- as a Catholic, I have my own issues with Christian fundamentalism. But its rampant incitement of the faithful to commit murder is not one of those issues: the occasional "Christian" who does something immoral like shooting an abortionist or blowing up a clinic is quickly denounced by mainstream Christendom for his evil acts, and rightly so!
Conversely, the Muslim who blows up an Israeli pizza joint is hailed as a hero and a martyr (disgusting perversion of the very concept of martrydom -- see my opening remark) by other members of his religion, and his widow gets a pension from the Saudi Wahabbists.
Roberto Calvi wasn't killed by muslims, but honour and ritual seems to have played their parts.
You are right - Calvi was murdered by the Italian Mafia. There may also have been some involvement by members of the masonic order he was part of.
Your point would be...what, exactly?
Posted by: at September 3, 2006 09:10 PMWhoops, that last posting was mine...forgot to fill out the info.
:$
Posted by: ken at September 3, 2006 09:10 PMThe Tora, The Koran, The Bible, there is more valid moral advice in the writings concerning the exploits of Noddy in Toytown.
So you say...me, I'll take "love thy neighbour" over any secular source, any day of the week.
Posted by: ken at September 3, 2006 09:18 PMUnlike you, bryan, I care greatly about justice for murder victims. You don't even have a clue about crime and punishment. It's always the knee jerk anti-American response from your type. Asshole.
Posted by: sam at September 3, 2006 10:00 PMSam, don't rate your opinion, deal.
ken, you should then realise as a catholic that you could pretend to convert, then, upon your release, confess, and atone. Of all the religions which could get away with this, the RC's stand the best chance.
As far as deaths and religions, the Popes have told people (and this was something they decided in the 1960's) not to use condoms (even when HIV+), not to curb childbirth in famine rich countries and that paedophile priests should be tolerated and even fostered. Yes, nor terrorist, but quite bad. Also in the 1940's Israelis bombed hotels and schools so please get your facts right.
The Calvi mention was that this was an honour killing with tons of symbolism, but it's the backward muslims who are bad. It's like the "good AIDS" (contracted by nurses and blood product recipients) and "bad AIDS" (contracted by hos and junkies). There's no difference.
ken, you should then realise as a catholic that you could pretend to convert, then, upon your release, confess, and atone. Of all the religions which could get away with this, the RC's stand the best chance.
I could do that, this is very true. But why would I? The fact that I can be forgiven for my sins -- even the sin of denying my Lord -- does not give me license to sin. Indeed, I pray daily "lead me not into temptation", and mean it dearly. And it is a very near and dear temptation -- the Devil always strikes at what is closest to the heart -- to think that I could just do it and give contrition at a later date in order to spare my own skin.
Because in the end, I would still be a coward. I would still value my own life more than the opportunity to confess my faith even at great risk to myself. I would still show my captors exactly the weakness they would wish to see in me, and wish to hold up before those who share their mindset. It is only in my standing up to them -- even if it kill me -- that I would both a) validate the faith I profess to hold and b) show them that not all Westerners are as weak and pitiful as they would like to demonstrate.
You would, of course, be welcome to take any measure you like to save your own skin...and perhaps when you came home there would be a majority of people here who would believe your repiduation of your conversion. But the opinions of the people of the West are not what is important in this case...it is the opinions of those for whom your "conversion" would be videotaped, the people tuning in to al-Jazeera. You would become one more example of the weakness and cowardice of the Western infidels.
Better, I think, to die.
As far as deaths and religions, the Popes have told people (and this was something they decided in the 1960's) not to use condoms (even when HIV+), not to curb childbirth in famine rich countries and that paedophile priests should be tolerated and even fostered. Yes, nor terrorist, but quite bad. Also in the 1940's Israelis bombed hotels and schools so please get your facts right.
Okay, so the Israelis bombed hotels and schools...they were wrong to do so, and I condemn those individuals who did those actions, and those who expressed later support for them. In the 60-odd years since then, what rogue sect of terrorist Jews has carried out attacks against civic mass transit (military/intelligence operations are, naturally, discounted in this case)? And even if we write the Jooooos (you would, I trust, prefer them referenced so?) off as heartless murderers, when was the last time the Baptists committed themselves to mass murder and preached it aloud from the pulpit?
Regarding condom use...this is a common criticism that is leveled, to be sure. But it is 100% false, and I need only to point to the staggeringly effective AIDS transmission rate reduction coming out of Uganda as my evidence. There, in part inspired by Church teaching, the government has for several years brought to bear a three-stage program to reduce the spread of AIDS that focuses primarily on abstinence and sexual monogamy/fidelity as the primary methods of reducing the transmission rate of this vile disease. The government's "third stage" is condoms, the Church in Uganda's "third stage" takes the higher road and focues on development of character. In either case, the results have been profound. So don't give me that false pap about the Church's opposition to condom use being the cause of millions of deaths: it is not borne out by the evidence, and in fact the opposite conclusion seems the more logical - it saves more lives by not focusing on a disease transmission reduction method that does nothing to address the primary means of disease transmission!
Regarding pedophilia by priests, yes, that is a horrible thing (though, to be fair, it has not killed many people, especially not when compared with Leftist governments and state-sponsored atheism), and blessedly the Vatican has introduced many reforms recently to address the problem further. Where there may have been some measure of tolerance before, I would expect not to find much, if any, now.
Your criticisms might read well at the Secular Humanist Bulletin, but held up to the warm light of reality they quickly crumble into dust.
The Calvi mention was that this was an honour killing with tons of symbolism, but it's the backward muslims who are bad. It's like the "good AIDS" (contracted by nurses and blood product recipients) and "bad AIDS" (contracted by hos and junkies). There's no difference.
Firstly, AIDS is a vile disease. Secondly, all who contract AIDS deserve the full might of all our prayers, for their situation is tragic indeed. Ultimately, it is secularism that posits a "good" and "bad" side to AIDS...Christ ate with the prostitutes, and wept (I would think) for the horror they endured in their lives. And so too the Church.
The Calvi reference was mostly irrelevant, and oblique at the very best. While it is certainly true that his killing was motivated by a sense of "honour", you'll note that I have not said his killers were right. And indeed, I will say it now: they were not right, but were wrong. And I pray they confess and repent of the sin they have wrought, for they will not know God's saving grace otherwise.
And certainly there is no difference, in the sense that both the killers of Calvi and the killers of Saleem were wrong, and were despicable murderers. It is also true, in fact, that the groups and ideologies they belonged too -- sharia-driven Islam on one hand and profit-driven Mafia on the other (reverse respectively) -- are disgusting and vile.
If anything, your point works towards the one made by the poster of the initial article.
Posted by: ken at September 5, 2006 11:41 PMRobinik, I'm stunned. Our media leads us to believe all Europeans hate us and what we are doing.
Posted by: HelenRae at September 6, 2006 09:14 AMKen, the Jews I mentioned as bombers in the 1940's all became high ranking apparatchiks in the Israeli governments up until their deaths in the 70's and 80's. Begin was one for sure. As to the rest, there's little point arguing with you, as I think you are some sort of zealot. I do think it would be a brave person who would stand up and say a loud "Fuck You!" at the point of a gun, and if you ever do such, I'll raise a glass to you're a better man than I.
As to the teachings of Christ, I would love to see more of them put into place. More of the "Love thy neighbour/ forgive/ help the less fortunate" and less of the "God is on our side/ Fred Phelps stating he was glad the London attacks occurred and was sad more didn't die (plus picketing soldiers' funerals)/ it's their own fault"
As to the paedophilia: I welcome any efforts to stamp it out in the priesthood, but my Cardinal (yes I was raised RC) moved these pervs around for years, and then was elevated by one of the most reactionary popes that ever was. That is just wrong. Weed out the wrong-doers and their enablers is what I would say.
Sorry btw, this whole idea of honour killing is wrong, and a distortion of Islam, just like the Somalian atrocity of female circumcision. It isn't in the Koran, but some sects do it and blacken the rest (ask a mormon about the polygamists). You don't have to requote me, I have a scroll up function on my keyboard:-)
Hina from Italy, Ghazala from Denmark, Fadime from Sweden - ah yes they happen in all societies (Read: muslim socities) and so if it happens in one place its ok that it happens elsewhere? what kind of bullshit crap is that? I am sick of Muslims blaming everybody but their own intolorance, reversed racism and above all - hate to the female gender. She doesn't obey, threaten her, kill her. Its all good.
I am a muslime female myself - I would probably be killed, had I uttered these words in a muslim community or better yet a mosque. NO wait - i am not allowed in a mosque. Dang. I might allure the men from prayer because all men are weak right? no will power? I am sure weakness tempted these men to kills their women too. Bravo. Now you are MEN and you can bathe in the admiration and honourable society of fellow muslims or pakistanis. I wish Pakistani and all muslim males would understand that owning a dick does not entitle you to have a God complex.
This will never end - as Alex pointed out - soon this will be fact for all socities unless he european countries strike down harshly. Personally - throwing them out of our civilized societies isn't too harsh. They won't give - only take and take - and frankly that won't get any integration going anytime soon.
Posted by: at October 5, 2006 07:00 PM
