March 25, 2008
My history with France
I'm not a France-hater exactly, as I do love me some Châteauneuf-du-Pape, Veuve Cliquot (really, all champagne), my Cartier love bracelet, Lancolm lip gloss and my hotter than hell Fendi sunglasses, but every time I'm in Paris, and I've been there three times now, I think "I don't ever need to come back here."
My first time in Paris was at age 19, as part of a 3-week trip through Europe with my best friend Laurie. It was our second stop on a trip that included London, Venice, Rome, and a few places in Switzerland, and was, by far, our least favorite of the trip. It isn't an exaggeration to say we got groped pretty much nonstop. We each had our asses grabbed a half dozen times. She had her skirt yanked up in the train station. We would get chased by groups of guys everywhere we went. They'd run after us on the Champs Elysee screaming "Americans! Americans!" We would have to physically force them away from us. It was extremely unpleasant.
When I'd tell this story to French people later, they'd either shrug and say that that's just how it is or, more often, they'd say "it's not French men who chased you, it's the Arabs."
Sure, sometimes they were Algerian or Moroccan men, but just as often it was pasty white guys who had obviously been born and bred in France.
My second trip to Paris was to visit a friend who had just moved there. She and I went to college together in Boston and would often complain to each other that the men, boys really, in the student union would look at us but never approach. She is fluent in French, having been born in Senegal, and we spent my time in Paris eating baguettes and cheese while we looked at art. Still, though, the problem of the French man persisted. After the third time we had to outrun a guy, she said "The problem is, you look up as you walk. That's seen as an invitation."
Last summer, 10 years after her "don't look up" comment, she'd tell me that she now saw the craziness in this statement. She would also tell me that these days she gets off a stop early on the train when she goes to the gym to avoid being hassled by a group of Muslim guys who hang out in that train station and call women "whores" as they walk by.
Really, Paris just never seemed to be for me.
My last trip there was with my mother and brother in 2002. It was fine, only a minimum of male harrassment, though it did happen and my brother had to get in some guy's face at a bar over it ("Zero," he'd say, making the zero sign with his fingers, "you have zero chance with my sister, comprende?"). We also encountered the usual rudeness although more so when we were speaking English to each other instead of Russian. Really, just not for me.
France-lovers always say two things to me when I recount my Parisian nightmares:
1) France is a country for love. You don't go there with your best friend or your mother. You go there with your man.
2) Paris is not France. The rest of France is completely different from Paris and, as you have never left Paris on any of your France trips, you have yet to see France.
So, with all that in mind, I'm going to France this May with my boyfriend. His friend is getting married in Paris and we're turning it into a 10 day trip all over France. There can be no further excuse-making by my Francophile friends. If this trip doesn't do it for me, none will.
As always, I turn to my awesome readers for advice. Any suggestions on restaurants, towns to visit, museums to see, places to avoid? We're planning to drive from Paris to Nice. Where should we stop along the way? Know a hidden gem? Share! Please leave suggestions in the comment section.
Posted by Karol at March 25, 2008 02:16 PM | TrackBackTechnorati Tags: France Personal+Blogging
The best way to see France is to go to Paris one day for the wedding and then spend the next 9 days in Italy.
It's great to be in a country that hates the French and loves Americans.
Posted by: Jake at March 25, 2008 03:39 PMLeave your Star of David necklace at home.
Posted by: Marco at March 25, 2008 04:01 PMBring a typical white person.
Posted by: Snoop Diggity-DANG-Dawg at March 25, 2008 04:05 PMPencil in a trip to Normandy if you haven't done so.
Posted by: Shawn at March 25, 2008 04:22 PMthe new b/f??? BTW when are we getting more data on him?
Posted by: at March 25, 2008 04:40 PMI second the Normandy idea. If you can only go to one place there, go to Saint-Mere-Eglise and see the paratrooper museum there. If you can only go to two places, go to the museum and Omaha Beach. Standing on Omaha Beach looking out at the ocean I found myself thinking, "Those poor bastards...".
I will submit that the people in Caen (where we stayed when we went to Normandy for four days) were very nice and kind. I make no bones about disliking some of France's policies or a lot of French in particular, but we had no problems there despite the fact we were very obviously American (well, most of us other than the Mrs. and the British Airlines stewardess).
Posted by: James at March 25, 2008 04:51 PMMy experiences vary wildly from the norm, I'm sure, as I spent half my time there visiting a Benedictine abbey studying Gregorian chant; the other half of the time was divided between Chartres, Aix-en-Provence, and Paris.
I wish I could have spent more time in Aix - it's really a marvelous place, and if you get down south I'd recommend it. I'm not certain to what degree Chartres would appeal to a non-Catholic, as the Cathedral was my primary reason for the visit, but if you like stained glass and impressive Gothic architecture, it's certainly worth seeing.
Look up this journal: http://stilo.livejournal.com/
(I hope you can still read in Russian) and/or ask teh author for recommendations.
Skip Paris and go to Lyon. Very neat town, great food, and VERY friendly people. Totally worth your time. I felt the same way about Paris, BTW. I'll never really care to go to Paris again, but I *love* Lyon.
Posted by: Nyght at March 25, 2008 05:09 PMI was alone and lost in Caen, and was helped by about 6 seperate people who seemed to respect my at least attempting to communicate in french.
You need to see France as Europe's Texas in so much as they love to say 'Fuck you' to the rest of the world, and they love a blue steak.
Paris is like New York circa 1980, rude people abound, and they would both walk over you rather than talk to you and don't care about what you think about whatever.
Talking of France, Sarkozy seems now to be the most unpopular president since the 5th Republic began, after only a year in office. His economic reforms have only got so far as to double his salary.
Sorry, forgot to say, Karol, never go to Turkey or Morrocco if this type of behaviour is offensive to you. You mention muslims, but I know several religious groupings whose attitude towards women comes out of the stone age. The Gropers of Rome compare well with the gropers in the arab world, but this time you've made fair comment. Many young turkish men hook up with old british women to gain access to the UK and Europe.
Posted by: bryan at March 25, 2008 05:41 PMSorry, forgot to say, Karol, never go to Turkey or Morrocco if this type of behaviour is offensive to you.
I've been to Turkey. In fact, I spent a lot of time in Turkey alone (my first night in Turkey in Istanbul airport and then several nights out in Izmir and Istanbul myself) and never had a single problem. It's not Islam itself that is the problem. It's that French people stand for some bastardized version of Islam. I don't see the Turks standing for the same sort of behavior.
Posted by: Karol at March 25, 2008 06:01 PMWhy, the hell, would you go back to France or Paris? When you're walking down an alley that filled with dog poop and you step in some the three times you've been there, why would you go back, unless you like stepping in dog poop. I suggest you like being called a whore by Muslims idiots and you like being chased.
Posted by: Reaganite at March 25, 2008 07:47 PMI suggest you're an illiterate moron and I'm embarrassed that we're on the same political side. What part of "I have a wedding to go to and I've never left Paris" was unclear to you?
Posted by: Karol at March 25, 2008 08:05 PMAhhh...I knew it was just a moment of time before the french hating trolls appeared.
The looking up in Paris is absolutely true. You can't make eye contact unless you want a man to follow you and proposition you, especially around tourist hubs. I will say that at 4 foot 6, I was never once "chased" in Paris even when I accidentally ended up in the red light district. You definitely have to train your eyes on the sidewalk.
Chartres is indeed gorgeous and is worth a trip.
I used to hate France. Now I envy the French.
Posted by: W.C. Varones at March 25, 2008 08:48 PM"You definitely have to train your eyes on the sidewalk."
Wow, what a charming country. Can't imagine why any woman wouldn't want to travel there.
Posted by: Snoop-Diggity-DANG-Dawg at March 25, 2008 09:01 PMSome pointers from NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/weekinreview/23sciolino.html?pagewanted=all
Heh. I'll be in Paris myself sometime in June, for my first international trip, unless you count Puerto Rico. I can't believe I'm gonna miss my chance to grope you by only a month :)
Now I start to see why my sister wants me to meet her there, but I have to believe there's something to that eye-contact thing. There are lots of women in Paris, right?
Posted by: Eric at March 25, 2008 09:45 PM"You definitely have to train your eyes on the sidewalk."
"Wow, what a charming country. Can't imagine why any woman wouldn't want to travel there."
How we attract romantic interests and how we communicate that interest varies from culture to culture. (Just as ideas of what is appropriate "personal space" vary from culture to culture.)
Parisian men believe direct eye contact with a strange woman is a signal of interest. That's a signal specific to that culture so if you go there, you have to understand that just as you don't flash a "peace sign" in England. Despite the eye contact trigger, once I said I wasn't interested, I was left alone.
Meanwhile on the streets of NYC, my home, I've had men follow me for blocks saying absolutely filthy things. I've also had men walk up and try and grab my breasts as I walked home from work. (And no it wasn't during a parade and as a professor, I assure you I don't wear the kind of outfit that advertises "goose me.") Am I going to leave the city because of a few asshats? No,it isn't enough to drive me away. Still, nothing even CLOSE to that happened to me in Paris, and I was there by myself.
Posted by: Bunni at March 25, 2008 10:33 PM
Aix-en-Provence - All of Provence for that matter. Rousset just east of Aix. Grenoble. Provence was where the Germans stopped in WWII and served as the bastion of the Vichy. It was largely untouched by the war. And the Cote de Azur is on the Med right there. St. Tropez, etc. Well worth the trip. Make a side stop in Monaco for a day. The Casino de Monte Carlo is well worth the time just to say you've been there. (Societe les Bains de Mer)
But I wholly agree about Paris. I hate the place and have to go there regularly on business.
Definitely good advice not to judge France by Paris. Normandy is amazing and the people are great; my all-time favorite place in France is Mont Saint-Michel, right on the English Channel between Normandy and Brittany. Biarritz (along the Atlantic coast in Basque country) comes close, though.
Posted by: John at March 26, 2008 01:04 AMAvoid Toulon, Marseille and Strasbourg if you want to avoid being hassled or worse by "youths," as the French papers refer to them.
chsw
Posted by: chsw at March 26, 2008 08:15 AMIt's the wrong direction for your trip, but Normandy is amazing. My favorite part of France by far.
I've never liked Paris, and I've gone there fairly regularly since childhood.
Posted by: Tanya at March 26, 2008 10:46 AMI've never had a problem with gropers but when I've been in Paris I've been travelling with children. The kids also came in handy in a restaurant when a couple of Frenchmen were making snarky comments about the Americans sitting nearby (us). I told the little girls in our group to point at them and giggle. Nothing gets to a guy more than having girls pointing at them and giggling. The Frenchmen shut up.
If you like impressionism, the Musée d'Orsay, on the left bank would be a good place to visit. They have the works that used to be held at the Jeu de Paume, a nice little museum that I used to visit. I've never been to the Musee d'Orsay, but I hope it's not big and overwhelming like the Louvre. I visited that once, and didn't enjoy it much at all.
Posted by: mary at March 26, 2008 10:46 AMGet south. La Croix Valmer, outside St. Tropez, is amazing. The beaches of Gigaro are nicer than those of St. Tropez. I had the best meal of my life in Cogolin. If you're interested, I'll get you the address.
I enjoyed Nice, as well. The markets are fantastic and the lavender fields are gorgeous. However, when I was ther in August the city was under a lot of construction.
I was there in August. France apparently takes August off and goes to the Riviera. Absolutely fantastic.
Posted by: Toby at March 26, 2008 12:23 PMKarol,
I had the absolute best profiteroles in the world in Paris. I still wax poetic about those pastries and to this day I've been unable to find anything nearly comparable in America.
Too bad you aren't going north. The tour of the Veuve Clicquot caves would be a nice day trip for a champagne lover.
(Re)read French or Foe?
Learn a few French phrases. No matter how bad you mangle the language speak French in stores or restaurants to the best of your ability. I have had nothing but wonderful experiences in France and I attribute it to the fact that I try to speak their language.
Posted by: forlorn apple at March 26, 2008 12:59 PMDon't stay in the Champs Elysee or even visit it. It's vulgar and full of unattractive people. The other "avoids" are the Bastille/Republique area (unless you plan to watch a Eurotrash opera production) and the Montmartre/Sacre Coeur neighborhood. Ideally, pick a hotel in the fifth or sixth arrondissement, near the Seine, so you can use the bridges to get around town, and avoid using the Chatelet/Les Halles subway stop.
The "French or Foe" book Forlorn Apple reccomends is great. Also it's worth buying a red "Plan de Paris par Arondissement" which is for sale at the French bookstore in Rockefeller Center or you can get it at a newsstand in Roissy or some bar/tabacs in the city. They contain detailed maps of every neighborhood and should be good for a decade or so.
If I were you, I would spend those ten days in and around Paris, Reims and Deauville, but Lyon is great, too. The tackiness of Nice reminds me of the Champs Elysee neighborhood, but it's cleaner, by the sea and has casinos.
Posted by: Cristina at March 26, 2008 02:42 PMUm, I've never been harrassed in the way you describe, and I've been to Paris many times, over many years and many dress sizes...that said, here are my tips:
1. The French are snooty. Fine. But if you snoot right back, they tend to respond well.
2. They would never wear anything vaguely athletic on the street, and look down on anyone that would.
3. The Picasso museum is really nice. Also the Rodin Museum and sculpture garden. Wandering around Monmartre and Sacre Couer late at night, overlooking the lights of Paris.
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berthillon
5. This is a bunch of restuarant recommedations by a friend of a friend of a friend: http://www.davidlebovitz.com/paris.html
6. the Marais - old Jewish district, and now lots of cool boutiques, restaurants, etc. kinda like a Williamsburg hipsters & Hassids kinda thing.
As for the rest of France...there is lots, depending on where you go and how you choice to get there. An afternoon in Avignon is highly recomended, as is an afternoon in La Rochelle, but that is out of your way. I've got lots more, email me and tell me what sort of things you are thinking of - i spent a school term and did a lot of traveling, besides many other visits.
Posted by: yana at March 26, 2008 04:54 PMParis is pretty, like a museum, but I wouldn't stay there. Each direction out of Paris holds something different, though.
Nine days? This is probably trite, but the pace is different in France. My honest recommendation is to go to the wedding, and leave immediately on the next TGV for Nice. Spend three days in Nice, rent a car and make tracks for Florence. Spend three days there. Stop in Monaco on the way back [for a day]. Catch the last TGV that you can and come back to Paris for your flight.
Alsace and Provence have long and distinguished cultural traditions because of regional [not 'national'] affiliations. The topography of southwest France dominates the culture [kind of like everywhere in Austria except Vienna]. And northern France is still great open farmland. You could pick anyone of those regions and have your fill of France [never have to go back again] and still enjoy yourself.
Posted by: at March 28, 2008 03:09 PM
