I guess the OP at TPM is skittish, because the comments basically say, "Lots of folks have loved ones in the war. Doesn't mean it's unwinnable?"

Yeah, well, it'd be nice if our entire political class was sharing in this pain. But, hey, don't you know Romney's sons are sacrificing the same as our soldiers in Iraq?

If Hillary or Obama had a kid serving there, you think that conservatives wouldn't bring it up and try to figure out how it would affect the coming election?

Hello, this is politics we're discussing here. The only reason the military is ever brought up is when people are talking about "absentee voters" or they're trying to figure out how "the military" will vote. Do you think that they're going to say, "Good for McCain! He has two kids serving in the military!" or something?

It's also be nice if the ingrates who get to enjoy their freedoms also participated in keeping them. Of course that would actually mean the chickenshits had to do something besides complain.

When someone is writing an article about the upcoming election, how "X" affects the election tends to be how "X" is addressed.

It's called a volunteer force for a reason. Numerous reasons for that. I think it hardly makes people "ingrates" when their leaders haven't actually _called_ on them to serve.

I've been saying since the day after a certain September event that if we're going to be fighting a 'Global War on Terror' we should have a draft--I've been given reasons I'm allegedly out to lunch. I seem to recall another famous republic starting its terminal arc when it's citizens could no longer bear conscription, but that's just crazy talk, right?

That being said, I just think it's a shame that apparently our politicos haven't instilled in their children the love of country they profess to have themselves. Even though McCain allowed his sons to go to an inferior school, at least they're actually serving.

J

Pokerwolf,

I think the problem that Karol has is that so many people (myself included, as you can see) castigate Bush for not having serving children or say Cindy Sheehan has absolute moral authority for being a gold star mother. Yet now
these same people are now saying, "Well, crap, this might get McCain a couple of extra votes...", which pretty clearly indicates they only cared about the military service when it was a cudgel to beat people about the head and shoulders.

Personally, I think kids in the service are a good thing (obviously), but I don't think I'd base my vote _for_ someone on it. Now, in Romney's case, his flippant comment about his sons was a reason to vote _against_ him, in my opinion--but thankfully the GOP primary took care of that for me.

Anyone who either castigates or credits an individual for the (presumably) free choice of his adult children is an idiot.

I'm not for the war in Iraq, but I never understood these freaks like Michael Moore who want to know why Bush, Senators, etc don't "send their kids to the war".

A proper response would be:
"Uh... because in order to be able to serve they have to be old enough where they are allowed to make their own decisions. Are you proposing I force my own child to serve in a war that I am sure he is aware is happening against his own wishes to do otherwise?"

Also, I don't see how McCain's sons serving reflects well on him. I mean... maybe a little in so far as he raised children who are competent and chose a respectable career (after all, I am against the orders the children are given, but I can still recognize the unselfishness of their actions). I guess it helps counter those on the anti war side who truly believe someone who is pro-war is literally evil and just enjoys sending G.I.s he doesn't know to their death. But anyone who is anti war for this reason is simply delusional. It was merely a (huge) tactical mistake from people who probably otherwise "mean well".

E5,

It reflects well on him because it means, to some degree, that the patriotism he espouses is actually reflected in the home. Compare and contrast to several other people who claim to be "patriots" and all for "defending their country" yet strangely _none_ of their children have taken up the call. You are right that the children are "adults," but generally that says something about how they view military service.
Of course, increasingly the military is becoming a "family" trade, but that's another discussion for another day.

I agree that it does reflect well upon him to a point. But the ultimate decision was theirs and theirs alone.

Also, regarding children of "patriots" who don't serve - I'm very hesitant to allow this to reflect poorly on the parent. For all I know the parent tried his hardest to instill his values on the child and begged and pleaded with the child to serve. It's a little much to expect the parent to divulge internal (possibly heated) family conversations to outsiders just so he can prove his patriotism.

Isn't it the family trade in the McCain family?

On the "patriot" comment, I don't mean to imply it's across the board. However, if you have, say, more than 3 children who are capable (i.e., no medical issues, etc.) of serving yet do not, then I gotta ask "Why?"

Of course, I'm Heinleinian in my view of service (and on how going to war votes should proceed), so I probably don't have the best way of looking at things.

Yes, it is very much the family trade--the McCains (John McCain's grandfather and father) were the first father-son four star admirals ever. Of course, the other family history of relatively early deaths due, more than likely, to high stress is one of my concerns for his candidacy.

E5 et al - what reflects well on McCain is that he doesn't talk much about his son serving in Iraq or about the son who is about to be deployed there. When he is asked about them, he says that he is proud of them, and then moves the questioning to a different topic.

James - w/r/t "early deaths" - Senator McCain has already outlived his father and grandfather.

chsw

Chsw,

That's my concern--the whole concept of "on borrowed time." Now, what may have helped him is that he never held flag rank, much less flag rank in the midst of a major war. On the other hand, neither his father or grandfather got brutally tortured either.
My concern, of course, is that the Presidency ages a person in dog years. This is why I hope that McCain chooses his VP wisely...although the way the Dem side is going crazy he could probably nominate Mephistopheles and it wouldn't have an impact on the ticket.

What are McCain's sons doing in Iraq? Aren't they like 80 or something?

"E5 et al - what reflects well on McCain is that he doesn't talk much about his son serving in Iraq or about the son who is about to be deployed there."

agreed.