"I'm supposed to care what the other Middle Eastern countries think? Cause I don't. In a big, big way."

All well and good if Israel stood on its own two feet. But it does not.

"I know the world doesn't care about dead Jews but it's strange to watch them be so open about it."

As your acquaintance noted and you certainly know, there is one country that cares. God's own country. The US of A. We rock. And that's the thing. Sadly the US of A does have to care what those godless barbarians in the Middle East think of us. If that's not incentive enough to drill in Alaska or turn more corn into ethanol, I don't know what is.

Every country in the Middle East-with the exception of the IRI and Syria, and those Islamist douchebags currently running Turkey-is supporting Israel. Like I've said before, if there was a way for those other countries to shove every Palestinian living there into a crematorium without some asshat from al-Jazeera capturing it on tape, then broadcasting it via satellite-another technology that was not invented by Moslems-they would.

That's to say nothing of the Finns:

Finns Support Israel

Believe me, if I you were a Palestinian child living in the Gaza Strip being accidentally turned into a pile of randomized, charred organs by an errant missile would be the best thing that could happen to you.

See?

European support for Palestinians might in part be to do with the fact that the news - at least in the UK - seems to have no interest in reporting on attacks on Israel by Hamas and yet are only too keen to report on Israel's attacks. I certainly hadn't seen anything until Israel's response.
We seem intent on becoming ever more stupid.

You can subscribe to videos uploaded by the IDF media unit if you have a Youtube account.

IDF Spokesperson's Unit

It's a good rule of thumb to listen to what countries like Syria, Iran and France think, and realize that the best, most moral policy is to do the exact opposite of their recommendations.

Palestinians may have some legitimate historical grievances, but they're pretty much forever tainted as evil in the eyes of America.

It's going to take a generation or two of good, civil behavior to get Americans to listen again.

They have no legitimate grievances.

They've been offered their own state five or six times by my count, and have refused to accept it-because none of those offers entailed Israel's destruction-each time.

They replaced Faisel al-Husseini-one of the Third Reich's most ruthless war criminals-with his cousin, Yasser Arafat, who was only second to Adolf Hitler when it came to coldbloodedly murdering innocent Jews during the 20th century.

A Palestinian state of their own is not the only request, and legitimate, grievance of the Palestinians.

You personally can disagree with it, but the "Right of Return" of refugees who had to leave their homes during time of wars in 1948 and 1967, who were not allowed to return because they were not Jews, would be considered legitimate by most objective folks who heard it.

That is really the Palestinians top demand, and one I personally think is legitimate.

Fortunately for Israel, however, most Americans don't really know the whole story anymore, if many ever did in the first place.

That the Palestinians opted for terrorism these past 40 years or so has prejudiced most Americans to always side with Israel no matter what. The Palestinians have become a brutally hateful people, and Americans (myself included) would support Israel against such hordes in any situation.

The Palestinians need to prove themselves human again. However, I think they're no longer capable of it.

Sadly though, Israel has to realize that by staying constant enemies with all their neighbors, they're really just playing a waiting game.

Sooner or later, those neighboring nations will get their shit together, and narrow the military/technological gap. They will have several generations of seething anti-Israelis there.

Egypt, Jordan and Syria's wars against Israel in the 40s-70s could have been far, far different if those nation's populations had decades of al Jazeera fueling their hatred. They hated the idea of a bunch of Jews up and taking control of what was generally seen as Arab lands at the time. But the hatred for Jewish people today is far greater, and far more dangerous.

Israel cannot survive forever in a constant state of conflict. They have to get lucky every time to survive. The Arabs, they just need to have fortune blow their way once, and the "Jewish problem" there is taken care of permanently.

Peace is in everyone's interest, but Palestinians won't be happy until the "Right of Return" claim is addressed. And until they change their attitude about terrorism, America isn't even going to listen.

They didn't have to leave anything.

They voluntarily left because they were under the illusion that their pathetic Arab-Moslem armies would make the Middle East Judenrein.

Even Said Abourish, whose family did leave the territory lawfully belonging to Israel-and who, the last time I checked, wasn't a huge fan of Israel-has said as much.

Most folks who've heard of the artificially contrived "right of return" don't know jack squat about the Middle East, Israel, or the jihadist mandate to restore the Caliphate. You could fit their knowledge of those issues into the pea-sized skull of midget Robert Reich.

You know what most people haven't heard of?

The million+ Mizrahim who were forced from their countries into exile at the point of a gun-or bayonet-by their Arab-Moslem tormentors.

Do you see any U.N. refugee agencies established for the specific purpose of pleading their-much more legitimate and morally valid-case before the world community? Do you see any refugee camps in Israel intended to house their second and third-generation descendents?

Hmm...?

Educate yourself.

The Silent Exodus

You lose a war, you lose your land--it's that simple. The only reasons the Palestinians are even listened to is the amplifying effect of the modern media coupled with their being a ready, easy excuse for Arab countries to not behave in accordance with Western norms. The Palestinians, like the Druze, had an opportunity to peacefully coexist in Israel. Instead, they decided to listen to grievance mongers and have embarked on an "eternal struggle" that has brought them little but pain and misery. At this point I, like Sean, think that they are no longer capable of acting as a civilized nation state.
I think that the analysis of fortune only having to be look unfavorably on the Israelis once is correct. Unfortunately, I think a large number of modern Israelis (judging from the fact that Olmert is still able to affect government in any capacity) just don't get it. As the World War II generation dies off and the Holocaust becomes another chapter in history rather than a living memory the situation will become even worse. After all, it's one thing to hear about the Holocaust--it makes a bit more of an impact when your father, mother, and uncle can roll their sleeves back and show you the numbers. I think Israel's destruction, unfortunately, will follow shortly on the heels of the collective national conscience forgetting what their fellow man is truly capable of.

But maybe I'm just a pessimist.

You lose a war, you lose your land--it's that simple. The only reasons the Palestinians are even listened to is the amplifying effect of the modern media coupled with their being a ready, easy excuse for Arab countries to not behave in accordance with Western norms. The Palestinians, like the Druze, had an opportunity to peacefully coexist in Israel. Instead, they decided to listen to grievance mongers and have embarked on an "eternal struggle" that has brought them little but pain and misery. At this point I, like Sean, think that they are no longer capable of acting as a civilized nation state.
I think that the analysis of fortune only having to be look unfavorably on the Israelis once is correct. Unfortunately, I think a large number of modern Israelis (judging from the fact that Olmert is still able to affect government in any capacity) just don't get it. As the World War II generation dies off and the Holocaust becomes another chapter in history rather than a living memory the situation will become even worse. After all, it's one thing to hear about the Holocaust--it makes a bit more of an impact when your father, mother, and uncle can roll their sleeves back and show you the numbers. I think Israel's destruction, unfortunately, will follow shortly on the heels of the collective national conscience forgetting what their fellow man is truly capable of.

But maybe I'm just a pessimist.

Forget the distant history Yes, wouldn't that be nice...

I want Israel to fight until the Palestinians have no choice but to make peace. Do you not see the irony in that statement. And, remembering the "distant history" -- what leads you to believe they will reach a point where they will have to make peace?

I do care about dead Jews. And I do care about the state of Israel. And, I do care about the attacks by Hamas, and yes they should be covered. But when the IDF is knowingly attacking civilians, including schools and hospitals, I have a hard time accepting that as "OK" And this mentality, that bombing people into submission is appropriate, or humane is rather disturbing, actually. So, like most people I know...I come out on no side, I just wish they could agree to a cease-fire and end the death and destruction of this country... (understanding, that has also been seemingly impossible for the distant history)

I guess my point is -- criticism of the IDF's recent actions doesn't mean that anyone hates the Jews, or doesn't support Israel's right to exist or defend itself.

You personally can disagree with it, but the "Right of Return" of refugees who had to leave their homes during time of wars in 1948 and 1967, who were not allowed to return because they were not Jews, would be considered legitimate by most objective folks who heard it.

That is really the Palestinians top demand, and one I personally think is legitimate.

It would be legitimate only if the objective folks ignored the context around the "Right of Return", otherwise it would resemble the case of the man who murdered his parents, then threw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan. The Palestinians had the right to return in 1948, had they accepted UN Resolution 194. They had it, but they weren't willing to live in peace with the Jews. But now, now of course they want the right to have 4 million people to become part of a country of 7 million, a country they've been trying to destroy for 6 decades. 4 million people, many of whom have never lived in Israel (60 years is a long time). 4 million people who even now are unwilling to stop attacks on Israel.

But usually, Katie, they follow up their criticism with their overt hatred for Jews and opposition to Israel defending itself.

And no, people have been bombed into submission many times throughout history. It's just that Israel is too benevolent to do what needs to be done. Again, if the Palestinians had Israel's weaponry, there would be no Jews in Israel. And we know this and yet pretend there is some sort of equality in their fighting. There isn't. Israel could destroy every single Palestinian but doesn't. Still the world hates it. It's anti-Semitism, you can pretend it isn't but it is.

Sean, the Palestinian refugees left Israel because their fellow Arab countries told them to. They said they would destroy the Jews and then the Palestinians can come back. When that didn't happen, the Palestinians were left in limbo and of course those same awesome Arab friends wouldn't take them in. Why should Israel grant a right of return to these people at the expense of its own security? They shouldn't.

Israel could destroy every single Palestinian but doesn't. Still the world hates it. It's anti-Semitism, you can pretend it isn't but it is.

If it was anti-Semitism, wouldn't the world hate all the Semitic people in the region, including the Palestinians?

Just sayin'.

"You lose a war, you lose your land"

Remember that if/when the Arabs get their shit together and win it.

If you make that the rule, expect to have to abide by it.

The Right of Return is a very easy concept for anyone to understand. Nuanced readings of UN documents tend to have less of an impression.

Israel is making it's own bed, as evidenced by comments here. So don't be upset if the Arabs should reverse the situation, and they say "You lose a war, you lose your land".

That's what you asked for. And lets face it, it's only a matter of time until that happens.

The U.N. is not a neutral party to this dispute.

I hate to belabor this point, but since so many of the people lamenting the plight of the Palestinians seem to be wholly ignorant of this point-among almost all of the other salient issues underlying the Arab-Israeli conflict-I see no other alternative.

Shock! UNRWA Sides With Hamas

UNRWA, A Sponsor of Terrorism

UNRWA's Hamas Employees

Terrorism in the spotlight

By way of contrast, the opening night of the film festival also featured Hostages of Hatred, exposing the extraordinary level of corruption in the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA). Founded in 1949 and established in 1950, UNRWA has abused its mandate, and itself become a tool of terror. In addition to staffing Hamas and other terror organizations, UNRWA employees were filmed using UN ambulances and other equipment to transport armed terrorists, bombs and other weapons. UNRWA employees were also taped calling for Israel's destruction.

Terror aside, UNRWA is also a seat of mass corruption. Its annual $400 million budget (including $90 million from the U.S.) compares with the $881 million budget for the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR). Some 23,000 UNRWA employees care for an estimated 3.9 million Arab “refugees,” compared with an UNHCR staff of 5,000 to manage relief for nearly 20 million other refugees in the world today. Thus Rehov caught on tape UNRWA employees—one for every 170 Arab “refugees”—loitering around in groups of five to 10, with nothing whatever to do. Finally, he documented the obscene UNRWA retirement benefits, a fund whose assets now total some $10 billion. No other UN agency has such a fund.

In interviews with “refugees” in Barajneh, Shatila, Jabani, Wehdat, Kariout, Rafah and elsewhere in Lebanon, Jordan, Judea, Samaria and Gaza, Rehov shows that the vast majority of Arabs were not forced from their land, and could have returned to Israel to see their homes long ago, if they so chose. But most say they will not apply for permission from Israel to travel there until “Palestine is freed from the river to the sea.” They remain in camps merely to coalesce Arab opposition to Israel's statehood, to maintain a massive weapon—in the form of a perennially “displaced,” inflated, and growing, human population.

In the largest camp, according to Palestinian writer Said Abourish, “for 20 years they didn't have a single death.” All the aged and infirm were buried in the middle of the night, but deaths were never registered, so as to inflate the total number of “refugees” receiving United Nations aid.

UNRWA, concludes Palestinian human rights worker Bassam Eid, “should be closed.”

Sean, if the Arabs "get their sh*t together" they ain't stopping until they probably kill 60-70% of Israel's population, raze most of the buildings, and generally make like the Mongol Horde on holiday.

So, yeah, I'll remember the rule because the it's not like the U.N., Europe, or anyone else is going to do anything besides wring their hands and say, "Oh golly we'd like to stop that but, um, well, uh, it'll take time to draw up the troops, write the resolutions, etc., etc.." until it's a fait accompli and nothing changes.

I've got news for you, Sean. The reason the Arab-Moslem war machine has lost every single war it's waged against Israel has nothing to do with the nifty gadgets Israel has at it's disposal, except insofar as that gap reflects the different priorities each society has established for itself.

Intellectual output from the Arab-Muslim World

There are a mere 12 Million Jews in the entire world yet they have received 184 Nobel Prizes.
The Muslims number 1.4 Billion (with a very big "B")... or 117 times the number of Jews! Based upon this 117:1 Muslim-to-Jewish ratio, one might expect the Muslims to have 24,920 Nobel Laureates.
They have NINE! and one of them [Arafat] is a murderer (Allahu Akbar, indeed!)

Unless the Swedes and Norwegians start awarding Nobel Prizes for plane hijackings, pizza shop bombings, civilian bus attacks, Jihad suicides/homicides, drive-by shootings, throat-slittings, embassy attacks and other such acts of barbarisms, the embarrassing low level of contribution to the welfare of Civilization and Mankind by the [Arab] Muslim world will continue. The Jewish People, meanwhile, will continue being the Lights Unto All Nations.

Don't take my word for it, read something written by an Arab observer:

Israel cultivates Nobel laureates, Arabs cultivate suicide bombers

Speak with any NCO who's had the unfortunate experience of training what Egypt attempts to pass off as soldiers and you'll realize that it's not a lack of ICBMs, or nuclear warheads that prevents that Arab-Moslem world from fulfilling the dream of Adolf Hitler and the forerunners to Hamas and Hezbollah.

Why do you think Saudi Arabia had to import French special forces-and use Western weaponry-in order to retake the grand mosque in Mecca?

These are not tactical deficits, they are deficits of ethics, intellect, and morality. They are the result of a skewed, fatalistic world view that's been imbued into these people for the past 13 and a half centuries.

You cannot erase that gap through parasitism, which is something the Jewish state's Moslem nemeses have yet to comprehend.

Sean has some very good points and there are many good counter points. I guess that's the main problem with this issue.

Karol's point "Israel is too benevolent to do what needs to be done. " is a very good one and has been proven over and over again. Lebanon was a great example of Israel executing an insightful, aggressive for. policy action and then squandering it through benevolent treatment of the enemy. Wow, that sounds just like the U.S. Maybe it's a democracy issue and not Israel specific. It always goes well until a school or apartment building is bombed. Well war is bad, you decide long and hard on that decision but once it's made you don't show quarter to your enemy until you win.

There were Palestinians forced out and there were those that fled because of propaganda. It sucks but that's what happened and I don't know how that issue can be resolved. I don't see how the Native American land repatriation issue can be treated but I do agree their treatment was not morally right.

All that being said Rockets being fired into Israel is unacceptable even if the strategic effect is minimal. The FACT that the UN resolution doesn't mention Hamas is ridiculous. If I were Israel, and with the consideration of Obama not being as staunch a supporter, I would react very forcefully to any threat. If the Palestinian diaspora truly wanted their land back they would do it through the proper legal channels. Launching rogue missiles to insite the militarily superior neighbor is just dumb.

The Palestinian issue clearly is one where 2 opposing views could be considered correct.

How ironic is it that a beautiful democracy established from evil of genocide is in a position where many believe that genocide is the only resolution.

Dan, you are being just way too thoughtful and circumspect for this issue. Don't you know that discussion of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict requires you to emotionally choose one side and close your mind to any counter-arguments?

Jim, given history of Polish deeds against Jews, why is that world Jewry don't hate universally every Polack, including yourself? Maybe becasue we don't have an automatic knee-jerk reaction to gentiles - unlike the gentiles themselves?

Specifically to your question: because in Europe for centuries on end the only representatives of Semitic group of languages were the Jews. And that then, as now, percentage of population versed in linguistic studies is minuscule.

But you surely knew that. Just like to yank our chain, that's all.

Consider my chain yanked. And I'm only half a Polack. :-)

Tatyana, to point out the flaw in your argument being a Pole is not relevant to ones religion. Therefore you can be a Pole and a Jew and could furhtermore not hate Poles universally because some would have to hate themselves.

Does being a Jew exclude one from being part of a nationality ? If that were true maybe we have identified why a nationalistic region like Europe would forment such strong feelings of apathy toward the group in question.

The Palestinian issue clearly is one where 2 opposing views could be considered correct.

No, it's not.

Their perspective can only be considered correct by people who have tacitly accepted the false premises that underly it.

Namely, that they were expelled from "their land" by a citizen-army, which was preoccupied with defending its own territory-not aggressively seizing the land that would have been apportioned to the Arab-Moslems living within the British mandate of Palestine. They left of their own volition, after being promised that their Arab-Moslem "protectors" would extirpate the Jews who had returned to their homeland.

It would also mean accepting the premise that the Palestinians were dealt with unjustly, when in fact they received over two-thirds of the land that belonged to historical Israel, i.e. Transjordan, the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and nearly half of what constitutes the current Jewish State. They would have been able to keep all of that land if they had refused to make war on their Jewish neighbors, who-contrary to popular misconceptions-were being murdered on a regular basis, in periodic pogroms, over three decades before the U.N. resolution establishing the modern state of Israel was enacted!

It would mean accepting the specious, wholly unscientific rationale devised by UNRWA to determine who is a "refugee," which is not applied to any other ethnic, religious or political group on the planet. It would mean believing that someone who lived within the modern state of Israel for less than two years before The War of Independence occurred should be entitled to return to land that does not belong him, and be granted citizenship to a country that is not his. It means implicitly accepting the preposterous notion that that man's sons, grandsons and greatgrandsons-who do not even have the tenuous connection to Israel that their ancestor did-should be entitled to recompense for a completely fabricated slight to their contrived heritage.

Dan, it is in your argument there is a flaw (very common to Americans, so don't feel bad).

Jews is am ethnicity. There are many, many Jews who are atheists (me included), and even more who are ambivalent about religion. Jews who converted to Roman Catholicism (or any other branch of Christianity) were killed by Nazis at same rate as those whose religion was Judaism. Nationality might be tied to ethnicity, and might not. Italians who were born on St.Island are still Italians ethnically, although they have American passport. Same with Jews: doesn't matter where we were born or lived, we are still Jews, in Warsaw or Columbus.

Ask any Pole, if they consider Jews born in their country genuine Poles - that would be one fun scene, let me tell you. There are virtually no more Jews in Poland (Poles worked very hard for this result), but anti-semitism is alive and prospering.

"Strong feeling of apathy" [towards Jews]? Some apathy. Type "history of Jews in Europe", and may be look up "apathy" - and then tell us if these two searches correspond in any way.

Jim, you yanked my chain first. Or stepped on my toe. Or yanked my chain AND stepped on my toe.

Don't pretend you don't know why Palestinians aren't considered Semites. In fact, why call the Palestinians? There is no Palestine. There is Israel. Palestinians is a misnomer: these people are Arabs, ethnically. Arabs live in many countries, including US and Britain. That doesn't mean ethnically Arab residents of UK have a heritage right to British Isles.

Tatyana, I am very familiar with the way Europeans (like yourself?) view the world and its people. The reason I consider being Jewish a religion rather than an ethnicity is based on the many different ethnicities that make up the entire population of the religion.

Your vernacular makes me think that you do hate all people of Polish decent sight unseen. My Uncle was actually murdered because of his (like your ? ) universal dislike of Polish people.

I'm sorry that you have lost your faith but I hope that you'll find it again one day.

I lost my faith? I do have faith, in many things, myself, for instance, and liberty. Non-existent deities are not included.

Interesting story about your poor uncle. If I were as inclined to accuse people baselessly as you do, I'd even thought it's a threat.
No, Dan, I don't hate Polacks universally. But every Pole should prove his friendliness to me first, before I trust him/her. Only a precaution, after centuries of persecution, murder and betrayals.

How's the search for "apathy" going? Educated yourself yet?

Yes, I was being a smart-ass; I thought that was obvious. But I do think that anti-Semitism is a misnomer. A more precise word would be anti-Judaism (or anti-Zionism, as the case may be).

You have a point about the Palestinians, but can you think of a more precise term to call the Arab former inhabitants of what is now Israel?

For that matter, why do we call ourselves Americans or refer to anti-Americanism when there is no country called America?

Anti-Semitism is Jew-hatred. It's a term specifically created in order to describe such, although with the intention of putting a more charming veneer on an age-old predisposition in Europe.

It has nothing to do with the definition of the word "Semite," or Semitic languages, e.g. Arabic, Aramaic, etc., so it can not be applied to the persecution/hatred of anyone who is not Jewish. That is simply a political tactic used by Moslem anti-Semites and their enablers in order to delegitimize the heritage of Jews-who were the original inhabitants of Israel-in addition to most of what became the Moslem world-obfuscate the real issues, and increase resentment of hatred of people who they're trying to exterminate.

Etymology

Anti-Semitism

If I remember my State-Dept-issued citizenship brochure correctly, this country is called, officially, United States of America. Try a better example.
How do you call Arabs who live in Jordan, or Saudi Arabia? Saudis or Jordanians. The ones occupying Dearborn, MI, are called Americans (sadly), no matter their country of origin.
So those 'Arab former inhabitants of what is now Israel' should be called by their nationality, and if they don't have one (like those trapped in Gaza), by the location of their residence. Gaza Arabs. Iraqi Arabs. Israeli Arabs.

Point 2, Jim.
Anti-Zionism doesn't work, either.
This is another red herring, used by lefty anti-semites everywhere: we don't hate Jews, we hate policies of Israel.

If that was true,French Arabs "youths" would not try to explode synagogue in Toulouse. Pakistani terrorists would not specifically asked for Jews among hostages, then tortured and murdered two American Jews. Etc, etc.

omitted "hostages in Mumbai".

Definately not a threat Tatyana just pointing out that you have made very good points that have been blemished by your demeaning reference to Poles. And seeing such ignorant terminology makes me think of a tragic event. Akin to the centuries of oppression you cling to.

Europe in general is in denial about the atrocities it committed against Jews (and other ethnic groups), perhaps apathy was not the best word for what I was trying to say. Replace apathy with animosity if you will.

Everything is so black and white to you Tatyana there could never be another view. Another terrible inheritence from your European (am i correct?) roots.

I have an Aunt just like you. Only 1 right view and coincidentally always happens to be hers.

FYI Semite refers to many different peoples from southwest Asia not just those who adopted Judaism. However the term "anti-sentimism" is clearly defined as not including anyone but Jews.

My 2 shekels on the matter.

Flame on.

Gerard, original inhabitants of Israel ?

Care to clarify that one ?

I for one do not think the "we were here first" argument holds water from either side.

And Tatyana yes [ethnically arab] residents of UK do have a heritage rights to the property of their ancestors in the British Isle.

If it weren't for the rocket attacks and terrorist breeding (big ifs) the seperation tactic is best. Allowing Hamas to take power clearly was a mistake.

I guess the answer is a perpetual war. Good luck with the half assed way democracies conduct that.

"Oh our enemy needs food, ceasfire for 3 hours"