Well said, Karol. This will keep me thinking all afternoon now. Thank you.

Thought the same thing as your husband regarding the woman in Hard Knocks.

Thanks, Shana!

Dave,

Thought the same thing as your husband regarding the woman in Hard Knocks.

WHY? They showed her for 2 seconds. What made it seem like she wasn't getting the job done?

Karol, I could not agree with you more. I love the show, but Draper just doesn't do it for me. Great post.

-Proud to be married to A Man.

Great piece. One thing:

There are many, many women who actually want Jim from the Office (for those who don't watch the show, he's a nice, sweet guy, not a lot of RAAAWR in him, if you know what I mean). He's trustworthy, kind and hilarious. He's also quite attractive. Maybe not in a leading man way like Don Draper but so what? Jim is catch. But if you think you're "supposed to want" Jim while really wanting a Don, you'll never be happy.

I don't think a lot of women actually WANT Jim, they just find him to be the best acceptable compromise. I think even a lot of the women who think they want Jim, if they could totally domesticate a Don Draper and keep everything the same about him with the exception of the chronic infidelity, would dump Jim in a second.

I dunno, T, have you been to Williamsburg, Brooklyn lately?

Maybe if the women who care so much about living up to the feminist ideal would just be themselves, they might find that no, they don't actually need a Don Draper fantasy to spice up their lives. Their husband or boyfriend, when picked because they want him and not just because they're supposed to want him, might just be enough.

I missed this part on my first read-through for some reason. Great point. I did a post on my blog about some feminist writer chick who dated hipster men so long she started getting on a kick about finding a man to hire to rape her. My theory was that the type of men feminism trained her to date were so unfulfilling in the assertiveness department that it caused her to overcompensate horribly in her fantasies.

http://therawness.com/modern-girls/

No reason that I had the thought. I just did. But I'm sure she does get the job done. Which is what matters.

It was interesting to read your opinion on this since it's basically a thought-out, reasoned transcription of my unformed opinion on this topic...I'd never really given it too much consideration, but had I, and reduced it to writing...this would basically be it.

[I'm mentally adding what you have to say in this post to the list of why I think our book idea is a fantastic one...if only masses cared what you & I have to say.]

T., honestly, the more I think about it the more I think, all things being equal, I'd prefer Jim to Don. Jim is not unmanly. What's unattractive about him is his lack of drive. But Don is missing something huge, that can not be overlooked, and I know men don't think women actually need this but I swear we do: sense of humor. Don would not make me laugh. Someone very wise once told me giggliness is very close to horniness. So while neither Jim nor Don are my ideal, given the option of either one with no changes to their character as portrayed on screen, I'd choose Jim.

I dunno, T, have you been to Williamsburg, Brooklyn lately?

I have my own complicated theories about that that are too long to get into here. ;)

Imagine living with Don Draper. His silence and secrecy would damage you more than his infidelity.
I agree that a a man who makes you laugh is halfway to being your lover, and know many not that great looking guys who have won the hearts of many a much better looking woman by amusing them.
Finally, Quentin Crisp said he was always looking for a REAL man, but that such a man would not have same-sex feelings, or he wouldn't be a real man. Relationships are difficult.

You need a regular column somewhere, Karol. The drivel I read day in and day out would be brightened by your charms ;).

Sawyer from "Lost" is also mentioned as another "strapping scoundrel with a deeply troubled soul". If I had to choose between wildmen Draper and Sawyer I'd definitely choose Sawyer, who, despite settling down for a time, is still tough and witty. Poor Draper's humor and spontaneity appear to have been crushed by domesticity and his job.

I only saw 'The Office' once, but found all of the characters to be incomprehensible and bizarre, including Jim. But it's easy to understand why a woman like Anne Bancroft would be attracted to Mel Brooks. Smart and funny is always attractive.

Mary, I'd recommend giving the Office another chance. I didn't *get it* at first either, but have come to really love the show. It'll be syndicated on Fox starting in the Fall.

Tweeted this quote from one of the Anne books by L.M. Mongomery. Thought I'd also post it here:

"I wouldn't want to marry anybody who was wicked, but I think I'd like it if he COULD be wicked and WOULDN'T."

Karol is right. A sense of humor is VERY important. I fell in love with a former co-worker not because he was hot (my sister said he resembled Charlie Brown), but because he made me laugh.

But it's easy to understand why a woman like Anne Bancroft would be attracted to Mel Brooks. Smart and funny is always attractive.

You forgot to mention fabulously successful and not at all poor. If Mel Brooks had stayed Melvin Kaminsky (his birth name) and ended up being the funniest guy in the accounting department at Macy's, then Anne Bancroft wouldn't have touched him with a ten foot pole.

Yeah, that goes with Karol's argument about attraction being about baser instincts. But on the flip side, super successful women are also attracted to alpha males, and they don't need their 'protection' at all, from saber-tooth tigers or loss of paychecks. Then there's another argument that alpha males are more likely to cheat on their spouses (another evolutionary argument about being programmed to spread seed, perhaps?). And I can't see how the destruction of a family unit helps out women at all.

I think the real answer to attraction is this:

Who the hell knows?

It's not about *needing* protection, Jamie, it's about wanting it. That's the whole point, women make their own money and there aren't saber tooth tigers after us, yet we still get hot for the guy who can take care of us.

Agree about The Office (Here, it's known as "The Office: an American Workplace" to stop any confusion with the British original). It is just a great understated gem. Ensemble pieces like this tend to take some time to bed in with a viewer.

American Women are the most messed up women on the planet. There's no reason whatsoever to listen to what they say. Foreign women (Non Western Women) are true women. They're not batshit insane like American Women. I've never met a sane American Women. American Women are actually very masculine in their behavior and it's a massive, massive turn-off. No thanks.

Evidence American Women are insane and hate competition from foreign women?
IMBRA

Karol, he does has sense of humor. It's just not the haha humor. No cake-in-your-face humor.

And his philandering actually quite complimentary to his sense of humor - self-deprecating, cynical, knowing; a sense of humor of somebody who knows his limitations (after a period of just grabbing shiny things...and then looking at himself in the mirror. Or being shown the mirror)- and it gives him an insight into limitations of others.

Bottom line: Draper is an adult. He knows his flaws but he doesn't quit. He's a fighter. He has teeth - and he's worthy to use claws for.

I'll take him, with all his weaknesses, his mean streaks, over any super-alpha (or endlessly-reflective beta, or gosh, make it double - over self-reflective beta). As to secrecy...where's the fun if the mystery's not there?

my favorite topic! the never ending quest to understand why chicks go for the p*ssified male. i guess this partly answers it, they think they *should* be liking this guy instead of the guy's guy who really turns them on. but then it's just sad to think that women ignore their libido and go for the 'meh' guy who eats tofu and wants to talk about his feelings. this gets more depressing by the minute.

pn*:a fundamental mistake is think woman wants the guy who talks about his feelings. They want a guy who participates in the dialog about the woman's feelings. A slight difference.

American woman + alpha man = divorce

American woman + beta man + alpha alimony/child support = feminist marriage

Just another thing. all Don's behaviours (smoking, drinking, bottling it all up) make him ripe for a huge heart attack (like Sterling).

Considering the characteristics which commenters have identified as being attractive in a potential male mate, it's a wonder how left wing women can ever find a left wing man to marry.

I guess most of the left wing women just fall in love with the state !
Come to think of it, so, too, do all of the left wing men !

my favorite topic! the never ending quest to understand why chicks go for the p*ssified male.

A "p*ssified male" is reliable enough to help her raise Don Draper's child (which the poor guy may think is his).

The really sad thing is there are a lot of guys out there who act that way because they think that's what women really want.

Your take is a good one. Though I think most women who are honest with themselves are attracted to Don Draper.

I don't agree with your self esteem issues, other than the faked background bit. Which is rather a dramatic stretch and an effort to give him false feet of clay. Or other than that most people who reflect any at all have them some. But no he hasn't yet shown them much.

"just ask my husband what happened when he said "why would they have a woman in that job?""

I also agree with your husband's skepticism. That kind of hard driving negotiation IS usually, as in very much usually, better done by men. Regardless of how big the ratio of female law grads is now. Especially from second tier law schools however.

Women doing better in math has to do with 80% female teachers these days, extreme gender prejudice against boys especially white boys now in heavily feminist and PC indoctrinating education schools, and the fact that especially when your kids and adolescents it's much easier for girls to sit still for a long time and be obedient and compliant. Particularly when the whole playing field's now designed to encourage their excelling at the cost of boys.

It's remarkable how great this prejudice is yet how little recognized it is in the prevailing feminist/leftist mindset in schools and among those that write about them.

pn

my favorite topic! the never ending quest to understand why chicks go for the p*ssified male.

They often/usually don't, when they can get someone more alpha, especially for shorter term relationships especially when they're younger. When looking for someone to settle down with they do go for or settle for a significantly p*ssified male, they're very likely to cheat on him, a lot, pretty soon these days.

And then hit him with divorce theft.